Saira Alikhan-A Lawyer's Unique Journey From Trial Law to Big Tech

In this episode Rhonda talks to Saira Alikhan, attorney and senior commercial advisor at Google. The two discuss Saira's  experience with race in the US as a child of immigrants and the impact it’s had on her career trajectory.  Also, Saira has charted a unique career path chock full of rich experiences and powerful pivots. If you’re looking to pivot in your career or are just looking for inspiration, this episode is definitely for you! Lots of gems in this episode!

Chapters

• 0:00 Learning What It Means to be Black
• 12:27 Career Journey
• 50:15 Pivot Pearls of Wisdom

Transcript

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 0:17

Hi, I'm Rhonda Coleman Wandel and welcome to my podcast. And today's episode I'm talking to Saira Ali Khan. Saira is a Senior Commercial attorney at Google, bringing a wealth of experience and insights to our conversation. In our talk today, we'll explore her experience with race in the US as an immigrant, and the impact it's had on her career trajectory. Also, Saira has charted a unique career path chock full of rich experiences and powerful pivots. And she's going to take us through her journey. If you're looking to pivot in your career or simply seeking inspiration, this episode is definitely for you. Lots of gems in this episode, y'all. Let's dive in. Hi Saira, welcome to the podcast.

Saira Alikhan: 1:11

Hi, Rhonda, thanks so much for having me.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 1:14

I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. You've been my colleague for the past five years. Because we work together and Accenture. And now we work together at Google. So I consider you to be a wonderful friend and colleague, so excited to talk about your career journey today. Saying

Saira Alikhan: 1:33

thank you so much. It's it's been great working with you and getting to know you better as a friend. And yes, it's, it's been wonderful. Working together.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 1:44

Awesome. So you've had a really rich and interesting career journey, you've held some wonderful positions where you have acquired, strong legal skill set and business skill set. And we want to talk today about how you pivoted from your first job to your next job and ended up at Google, because there's a lot there. And while you've built a great career, you've been challenges along the way. And we'll talk about those challenges, tools you've acquired and nuggets of wisdom you've acquired along the way that you can share with the guests.

Saira Alikhan: 2:26

Yes, absolutely. I've been a lawyer for 19 years. So I guess I can consider myself. Well experienced, I would say. And yeah, I've had a huge breadth of experience. And those 19 years. And some would say that it is unusual. I think that I have a lot of pride in the diversity of legal experience that I've had each role has prepared me for the next and catapulted me into a career that I didn't otherwise think that I could get into or break, break into tech. I started out as a municipal city attorney in 2005 for my first legal job. And now I am a commercial advisor manager at Google where I advise senior sales leadership and cloud deal structuring and negotiate our cloud contracts with, you know, large fortune 500 companies.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 3:48

Okay, wonderful, amazing. So before we get into the nitty gritty, let's start at the beginning. Your parents are immigrants. You were born in the United States, but first child of your parents to be born in the United States. Is that right?

Saira Alikhan: 4:03

Yes. Fun fact. I am the first US citizen in my family of four small family. I have one brother, my dad is from India. And my mother is from London and name moved to the US in 1981. I was born and they came here for the American dream. They wanted to have a better life for themselves and for their children. And I think that they were well able to establish that.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 4:35

Okay, great parents from India, in London. And they moved to the United States from the UK. Is that right?

Saira Alikhan: 4:43

Yes, they they met in the UK. My dad went to college there he met my mother. And then they had my brother in the UK spent some time there and then moved to the US in 1980.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 4:59

Okay, So I know, you know that the way race is handled or dealt with in the UK is different from the United States, particularly for people of color or black people. What was your experience growing up with race? Because when I look at you, you look like what in the United States will be identified as a black person. And I imagine that that's how you were seen and viewed and treated. But what's your experience with that, like, I think this is just be an interesting conversation. It

Saira Alikhan: 5:42

is, I am a bi racial person. So my mom is black, identify as black, my dad is Indian so. And, you know, growing up, I didn't really have a sense of either of those races, or identifiers, I just knew myself to be Syrah. Obviously, my skin color was different, but I didn't have any kind of insight into what that meant. Or if there would be any consequences for having a different skin tone than, you know, the people I went to school with, and predominantly white areas. So, you know, because my dad's Indian, he can't really identify with being a black person in the US, he didn't have that experience, you know, sure. He is well versed in the civil rights era. You know, he was born in the 1940s. And, you know, there was some element of that in England as well, that I'm sure my mom, you know, grew up with. She was also born in the late 1940s. But they just did not have any sense of what that meant in the US. And they never really talked to me about it. So everything that I learned about race was kind of on my own, and through experience, whether it was good or bad. And, you know, it, it is something that I wish they would have prepared me for. Because kind of going through it and learning on your own can be pretty tough.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 7:21

Yes, I imagined, so I imagined so. So, you know, I feel like we're friends. So we talk. And although our experience or background with race and how our parents taught it to us, or how we learned that we were black, is different. I think there's still strong parallels there. So for me, I grew up in Memphis, Tennessee, my parents also born in the 40s, lived through segregation. And then United States, lived through the Civil Rights Movement, went through integration, marched on Washington with Dr. Martin Luther King. So they know firsthand what it means to be a black person in the United States or an African American person in the United States. And there's lots of pain and trauma that comes with that. So the way my parents chose to address that they definitely informed us of history. They let us know the things that they had experienced. But they never instilled hatred, and us toward racist people. They wanted us to feel like we can achieve anything we wanted to achieve in the United States. They, it was never a discussion or implication like, oh, you know, there are people who don't want to see you succeed, or, you know, it's going to be hard for you because you're black, because they wanted us to feel like we could just conquer the world, right? And I was in all black schools from kindergarten through 12th grade, upper middle class. That was my reality. Like I didn't, I knew I was black, but I didn't know that the world felt like that was a bad thing. Or would create challenges for me throughout my life because of that, right? And so that was good. But I had that confidence to just feel like I could soar and try anything. But when I decided to pivot, from teaching and my comfortable network in Memphis, to being a lawyer in Chicago, that naivety did not completely serve me. It helped me like the LEAP who thought like I could do anything but when it was time to cut heart, my legal career journey, I would have needed to really understand what I was up against as a person of color and as a woman in a City where the lawyers are plentiful is a super competitive race shape. Yeah, so do you. And I think that you too, had a bit of naivete, but it wasn't by choice. It was a little bit different.

Saira Alikhan: 10:17

Yeah, I mean, 100%, I would have liked to have had a network, or people to, to kind of pick their brains about what it was like, either practicing as a black attorney, as a woman, attorney, someone practicing in Chicago, all the things that you brought up, I did not really have that network. You know, my parents didn't. They both were working professionals. But they, they weren't lawyers, they didn't have that advice to give to me. My mom did introduce me to a couple of lawyers that she worked with, and they were white men. So they, you know, we're not going to kind of broach that topic with me. And again, I was in a predominantly white neighborhood. So my parents being in an interracial marriage, you know, they obviously were more comfortable with with race and differences, and I think other people may have, there may be in the US. And I don't think it's something that they really thought about, you know, when I think back to my childhood, I think there were instances that that I could consider to be racist, but I don't know if it really crossed my parents mind if they felt the same about those. And even as I've gotten older, and they've lived in kind of these predominantly white neighborhoods, I've, I've, I've noticed, looks that they get comments people make and they don't seem bothered by it. They like the the nature, the scenery of where they live, and you know, that's fine with them. So I really do respect that because it doesn't hinder them, it doesn't bother them. But for me, in my experience, it was a little bit different, where I think it has directly affected my ability to succeed in certain areas. So I think it's just different experiences for different people.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 12:25

Yes, yep. I agree with that. Um, why did you decide to become a lawyer? When When did you know that that was something you wanted to do? I

Saira Alikhan: 12:37

knew pretty early on. I mean, when I was younger, of course, there were notions of being a ballerina, or, you know, wanted to be a veterinarian at one point. But then I was like, Oh, I can't deal with the blood and surgeries and stuff like that. But once I got over those phases, I pretty much knew I wanted to be a lawyer. And you know, it's funny when, when you have kids that are outspoken, or you know, are good at making arguments, a lot of people will kind of push you towards being a lawyer, or will say, make comments at all, you'll be a good lawyer, you know, you you're good at arguing it. And I think I fell into that camp. I'm pretty outspoken, I've been an outspoken person. Since I was young. I mean, there's bits of shyness in me, I have a duality. But when I when I feel like something is unjust, I'll definitely speak up. And I do have convictions, which I got from my parents that are both, you know, pretty well, moral people. So, you know, my dad also, I think, had notions of being an attorney when he was younger, but unfortunately, his parents are stemmed to be an accountant. And that's the profession that he chose. And for me, I think it was a little bit of him steering me towards being a lawyer, me really identifying what the work the quality of being a lawyer, I really wanted to help people. I have this innate drive to help humanity to help people. And that is something that has stayed with me for a very long time and continues to so it was just something that I've always kind of wanted to do from very young and I never wavered from that.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 14:29

Okay, great. So it was time to go to law school and you know, know you applied several places. And I know you applied to Loyola where you ended up going and you also apply to Howard law and HBCU. So, on some level you probably kind of knew or felt like an environment where you were supported as a black woman and nurtured with I was going to be valuable, but ultimately you chose Loyola do I wouldn't say regret because I don't like regrets. But do you think that if you had chosen the HBCU path for law school, that your career trajectory as a woman of color would have been different? Oh,

Saira Alikhan: 15:20

yeah. 100%? You know, I think without the alternative timeline that may be out there the alternative universe? Yes. I mean, gone to Howard, and how much different my career would look, you know, I ended up chose choosing Loyola because I was, I am very family oriented, my parents were getting older at that time, and wanted me to spend more time with them, and live in Chicago, they are in the northwest suburbs. So I was happy to do that. But I did want to kind of branch out and attend other schools. So I applied to Howard, I applied to some schools in New York City. You know, and I did end up getting accepted into Howard. I didn't, you know, I didn't go for the reasons that I mentioned. But I think Howard would have been a great choice. And my life would have been different because a there is that that network of black folks built in, there's a lot of people that are successful, and politics are successful in business, you know, different areas where I think that network would have really come into play and been helpful for me to elevate various positions that I haven't been able to reach. You know, when you think about how networking happens, and white spaces, that's that's how that's how it happens. People elevate people they know, their friends, their their kids, friends, you know,

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 16:57

people who are like them, which actually, you can see, you know, we are trying to create a different future where bias does not influence who you hire and select. But the bottom line is that it's still they're pretty entrenched in our in our culture, but you hire people who you like, who and who are like you,

Saira Alikhan: 17:21

exactly the people that surround you. And so having that network would have would have been very pivotal for me. I think I maybe would be on Capitol Hill, maybe a career in politics, which I was mildly interested in at one point. But yeah, that was one of the reasons I applied there. Because there is that large, black network, and it's considered to be a very prestigious school. Because of that.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 17:50

Yep. No, I totally agree with all of that. I know, I have three college age children. And so one of my children is currently considering going to an HBCU for all of those reasons. And I, because I've, I'm living this life, having to create a network that, that understands me, supports me and has already created pathways for me as a woman of color, because I understand the importance of that in your career is more important than what you know, almost. Absolutely. Who you know, and having that sponsorship, like 100% support her in that and almost now like pushing her that way.

Saira Alikhan: 18:39

Yeah. 100% I don't think that I understood the value of network as much as I do now. You know, when I was younger, I didn't think that it would be that impactful. I thought, my work my knowledge, intelligence would speak for itself and get me the place I needed to and the girl

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 19:05

and my just naive. Me to I was just like, Oh my God, my resume is amazing. Like, why wouldn't you want to hire me for my first job out of law school? gymnasium, gripped and rejection rejection. And after a while, it's just like, Oh, my God, you know, you start to question your value, you know, and am I really good as I think as good as I think I am? Or am I not just accepted by by people, but that's not it. It's very competitive. There are tons and tons of people who are very good and have great resumes like you. You need a sponsor. Yeah, that's for you and walk you through the door. Yes,

Saira Alikhan: 19:52

I mean, preach. You bring up a really great point and it's easy to feel low during those times where you're getting rejection after rejection because you don't have the the network because you don't have the sponsorship, you don't have the foot in the door. And you know, I am guilty of of also feeling like maybe I don't deserve these things or maybe I'm not good enough or maybe there's just that many better people out there in. It's easy to get into that mindset. But I want you know, any listener that that's feeling that way right now to to remember that it's you know, it likely doesn't have to do with your resume. And it is that networking and sponsorship that you need, because people want to help other people they know, they're not just going to pluck you out of a resume of you know, 3000. And it looks the best. It's just not

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 20:48

exactly. I went to a networking and branding workshop this past weekend put on by Shereena may Edwards and lovey Jones and Shereena said, Okay, when you apply to jobs on LinkedIn, you are applying to a black hole. Yes, yeah. Some people had luck, you know, getting jobs that way. But most of the time, you know, no, you need somebody to flag your resume. Yeah, exactly.

Saira Alikhan: 21:17

Exactly. I do wonder whether or not there is merit to having a more white name or having a name that is male. And I would like to participate in that experiment one day. So interesting.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 21:30

But I think you say that because when my because my parents that are in their error of naming children because of what they had experienced, they gave us names like that. You couldn't tell what race you are Rhonda Coleman, you know, my brother is Roderick, and my little sisters, Rosie, so they didn't want us discriminated against off the bat. Right. Yeah. But my children, you know, I have a Minaya. And that's an Egyptian name. And I have a Kimani you know, other African name, my name then my mother was like, Are you sure? And I'm like, What are you talking about? Mom, these names are gorgeous Minaya means much as expected of her. Fortunately, I think I think that's not as as as big of an issue as it was. But like you said, Be interesting to see what the data says.

Saira Alikhan: 22:24

It sure would. I don't think my name helps my case, you know, most people can't pronounce IRA and alikhan is just nobody really even.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 22:38

That's funny. So let's talk about your first job. Because when I was talking to you about him, I know you I didn't know a lot of these things about you the jobs that you had what you did the amazing experience that you gained. How did you end up at your first job?

Saira Alikhan: 22:57

It was kind of by happenstance, you know, as a young law student, I had dreamed of making, you know, the$150,000 a year and I just knew that was going to be me. And, you know, a year rolled around and on campus interviewing started. And you know, I got some really great interviews, but I didn't get a lot of offers from those large firms that attend those OCI events, and kind of dangle that carrot. I ended up getting an offer from the city and I decided to take that role in labor and employment. And I didn't really have any notions of being a labor and employment attorney before, you know, I don't even think I had taken any real classes and law school surrounding that. You know, I was actually really interested in torts. And for some reason, I don't know why I wanted to do personal injury. But because I got this offer, and kind of it was really only my only offer, I decided to take it. And it ended up being really great. Because, you know, government is chronically under resourced, and I was able to get a lot of experience really quickly. I was handling hearings. Right off the bat, I was handling a lot of motions, things that a lot of my peers that were probably at those large firms were, you know, not seeing it at their experience level. And so as much as I was saddened by the fact that I wasn't making that 158 Okay, significantly less, by the way, I was getting rich in experience, and, you know, amassing administrative hearings and trials under my belt and dealing with some really cool and interesting fact patterns of, you know, police discipline or, you know, discrimination claims. So that started to open my eyes to the possibilities of of continuing to be in labor employment, and I wanted to do that.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 25:36

Okay. So labor and employment for the city of Chicago, and why did you decide to leave that position and where to go after that.

Saira Alikhan: 25:51

I had worked there for a couple of years. And like I said, got really great experience and my colleagues were fantastic. I just felt like I needed to be able to make a little bit more money. And there was still this sense of, you know, stigma, I think, associated with government work. And I wanted to be able to show that I, you know, can rise above that, and be part of the private sector, I got an opportunity to work at a small insurance defense firm where I could continue this employment practice, as well as work on some personal injury cases. And, you know, as I mentioned, in law school, I really was interested in torts, negligence cases. So I thought that would be great to checkout. And I did that for a little while and, and got some good trial experience. Do you think actually, I did get good trial experience there in state court. Before that, you know, at the city, I was I was working mostly in administrative hearings. So now I'm in state court handling cases, myself stepping up for status hearings, and arguing motions and whatnot. So that was really exciting for me. And I worked at that position for about less than a year, it was tough for me, because going from working for the government to private practice is night and day, because your billing hours now you have a yearly, annual billable requirement that at the time, I didn't realize was significantly high. And we required me to work 6070 hours a week. And sometimes my hours were getting cut, because the client didn't want to pay for those hours, because they felt like it was taking me too long to do certain things. So I would be penalized as a result. So I found that to be too difficult to maintain. Mm hmm.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 28:18

Yeah, so let's talk a bit about so you know, you've mentioned three positions. And the first one, you you work there two years, you amassed this wonderful skill set, you had a lot of liberties, a lot of responsibility, you were handling your own cases. Because oftentimes, government is short, short staffed, they don't have a ton of money. So they let you just go for it. So that was great. And you enjoyed that you enjoyed the responsibility, you enjoy the work, the advocacy work, but it didn't pay enough. So I feel like we're always kind of trying to find balance between what we love what we're passionate about, and what we think, you know, we need to be able to support ourselves and our families financially. Yeah, short term and the long term. But it sounds like you were also there was something else in the mix. You mentioned the stigma, or a stigma around government work. And so for me, this sounds like okay, external influence external pressures that we have to live up to in order to be considered a success. And you early on in your career, maybe a coach or mentor could have helped you tease some of that out because I think that keeps us from following our passions sometimes and what we love and puts us on somebody else's path or trajectory, which It's never good. No, there's a lot of tension on that path of what we're supposed to do, versus what we love to do and what we want to do. Exactly.

Saira Alikhan: 30:12

I love how you, you brought that up, because you know, that's just been a common theme throughout my career is this kind of push pull tension with what I want to be doing and what my passion is, and then be being able to take care of myself and my family in a way that I feel comfortable doing. You know, there shouldn't have to be that tension. But there there is, for me, as I mentioned earlier, I really wanted to advocate and help people. But I found myself getting positions at companies or, you know, government roles, which were defense. And so I wasn't defending the people that I want it to be, I wasn't advocating for the people that I wanted to be advocating for. I was defending kind of these organizations, these corporations, which was an opposite to why I wanted to become a lawyer. But those were the roles that I was getting, those were the roles that were paying. And, yeah, like, you bringing up the fact that it would have been helpful to have a coach earlier on in my career 100%, I went straight through from college to law school to working, I had no real working experience outside of working summers in college, or I was younger, you know. So I wasn't really familiar with the politics or how things work in a corporate or government setting. And I'm sure a lot of things are flying over my head, because I just didn't know to look out for them.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 31:47

Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And it's interesting. I mean, the earlier you get coaching, the better. And I mean, like even at the at high school, middle school, you know what I mean? Yes? Are people like my children? And children who are in your orbit, have the benefit of our experience? Right, in corporate America, like I can talk to my daughters and my son, I can kind of gear or push them toward certain positions and opportunities within a corporate, you know, environment and tell them no, you don't want that one. Because that's too low of a level for you. Right? It took you too long to get to where you really supposed to be. So don't accept that. Yes. Which kind of takes me to a point where it's not a question in my notes. About like, when you don't quite understand the landscape that you're stepping into, you don't quite know what it means to accept the position at a level that is beneath your skill set. What that really means for you economically, not even economically, just kind of emotionally and morally. Once you get there. And you realize, wait a minute, like I'm i Why is my level this right? Next person's level is a level above me. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? Just in general? Yes,

Saira Alikhan: 33:24

I mean, again, these are these are things, as you mentioned, that I would have loved to know, when I was younger, and I went in blind. So I accepted levels that were kind of given to me, I did try to negotiate, you know, as I learned, to negotiate for higher levels, but I think for me, the argument that was mostly made was, I was not as experienced, you know, in my younger years, and I was typically trying a new area of the law. And for me, I liked being able to learn different areas of the law, it was interesting for me to continue to learn about legal areas and kind of form a full picture of how things work and interlock. And that just satiated my curiosity I really like to learn and I guess I'm kind of a legal nerd. But I thought that that would really also just help my skill set and up level me in a way that people who are specializing in one area of the law wouldn't really be able to match. Having somebody like me with knowledge of different areas of the law, I can problem solve quicker and differently. And somebody that's only focused on one specific area, but to your point, you know, feeling as though you're underleveled when you You have all of these other skills that maybe aren't being considered as valuable for whatever reason, you know, there's some subjective reason that they don't find XYZ to be valuable. It is, you know, it is disappointing and totality, it has an effect on your pay has an effect on you emotionally, it has an effect on your advancement. And I think being able to anticipate that and notice and see kind of those patterns or those red flags, right would have been very valuable for me as a younger attorney. And I'm still doing that to this day, you know, there's a lot of corporate speak that happens, people don't fully understand some of the roles that they take on despite their best efforts, you could ask as many questions as possible to kind of dig deep, but, you know, you may not be getting transparent answers. And so it's, it's a dance that is, is very important to understand very early on. Right?

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 36:11

Yes. And to network up so that you create as many alliances with people who are in the positions of power. Yeah, within Corp in the corporate structure, whether it's your corporation that you work in, or another one, so that they can be your guide, through through that jungle.

Saira Alikhan: 36:33

Exactly, exactly. It's, it's tricky. Companies want to save money. And they can do that by either leveling you, at a certain level or offering you XYZ amount. So it's important to know your worth and really fight for that.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 36:52

Yep, definitely important to know your worth important to understand the value of your skill set, and kind of package and market and brand yourself in a way where you have to maybe teach the the entity hiring you or looking at your resume, why your unique skill set combination is valuable, and own that and then don't accept anything less right than what you know you deserve because it exists it exist, it may not be in the place that you're looking, you might need to turn your head to the right. And you might need to kind of plug into a sponsors network or you know, coaches network, but it exists. So don't feel like you have to take take the lower level or you have to take this position over here. You don't have to accept the explanation that you don't have these skills, or you don't have this or this is in tech now. And you got two years of tech only know, you know, I may have two years of tech, but I've got 10 years of investing, which is going to make me a more valuable and impactful employee. And don't pretend like you don't know that. Yeah, talking to per hiring and to don't pretend like you don't know that, like you're not getting the benefit of all of this. Yeah, yes.

Saira Alikhan: 38:27

Yes. Very excellent points.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 38:30

Okay, so you. So where are we made it to three positions? Where did you go next?

Saira Alikhan: 38:41

I ended up going to a large firm, after a brief stint at this Pei firm, I went to a large firm. And this goes back to how you want to be seen. So in law school, everybody's dream was to work for the large firm to make that excellent pay to get those great benefits. And I had an opportunity to do that, and employ employment once again. So I took it. And it didn't make me as happy as I thought it would have. Yes, I was getting more pay. And I was able to live more comfortably than I had been before. But I was working extremely long hours. And I felt like I was just put in this back room, proverbial neck room and reviewing docs for hours and hours on end. Where before I was going to court every day, I was handling depositions on my own. I was creating litigation strategy for the cases that I was handling As I was answering discovery higher I wanted to. And I felt like although I had progressed in my economic stature, I was now regressing in my legal skill. area, because I was just reviewing documents after documents for discovery for these employment cases. So, you know, I worked for a couple of years at this large firm and got that experience. And I was provided a job opening for a state government role by a friend of mine. And they said, hey, you know, they're hiring. And I was like, I don't know, he, you know, it's gonna be a huge pay cut. You know, I feel like I'm regressing. I had left a government role that I had initially my first job out of law school, and I just don't know if this is going to progress my career in a way that I want. But I decided to apply for it any any way. It was around 2008, things were really shaky at large law firms with the crash and the economy, just not really doing that well. So I thought I'd just explore. And I ended up passing all the interviews and getting an offer, which was significantly less than I was currently making. But I made the decision to go ahead and go for it. Because I knew I was going to get the things that I was craving, I was going to be in court every day I was going to be able to do trials. You know, if you haven't guessed, I was a litigator for the first half of my career. So that was what I really enjoyed doing, not sitting in a room, reviewing documents. So despite there being a major pay cut, I felt like I would go with the passion and take this role. And it was billed as an employment law role. And when I took it, I was not put in The Employment Law Group. I was put in another group that mainly did civil rights litigation for prisoners. And I was didn't

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 42:37

switch there will be a little bit of that experience.

Saira Alikhan: 42:42

Yeah. And I was a little bit concerned. Because I was like, Well, what, what is this? And they were like, well, you'll be able to switch to the Employment Law Group at some point, blah, blah, blah. So okay, I started doing it. And yeah, I'm in federal court, boom, day one, and I'm in federal court every single day, and doing a lot of motion practice and back in where I want to be. And now at a at a level that tie. Federal Court is much different than state court, and you have to be very prepared. Always, your motion writing has to be very onpoint. Your oral arguments have to be very eloquent. And, you know, I was doing that every single day. And I amassed a lot of experience working for the state government for four years. And I handled three federal trials and was the lead on them and one, every single one. So it was a really great move for me to take that pay cut, because I got a lot of experience that become became very valuable to me, and for me in my next career steps.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 44:08

Yeah, I think that's major that you realized, I'm getting paid a lot of money, but I'm miserable. And I'd rather do something I'm passionate about where I actually feel like I'm growing as a human X is expanding as a person in addition to building a skill set that I want and took the lower pay, cut and enjoyed variances by the bait and switch.

Saira Alikhan: 44:38

Yeah, there were a couple of times that I didn't have enough money to pay bills and they actually the state didn't have enough money to pay my bill sometimes. But it was really the camaraderie I had with colleagues there that kept me going. We were all very close and willing to help each other out and we were all the stewards of our own cases. So we were all experts in our various areas and more treated like professionals as such.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 45:08

Okay, so we got to fast forward to tech, because yeah, tech now. So how did you make the transition from being a litigator primarily for government to being a tech, virtual transactional attorney. For fortune 500 company,

Saira Alikhan: 45:32

I was able to use all of that great child's skill and litigation knowledge that I picked up in the government. And I was recruited to a boutique intellectual property firm, and handled their trademark litigation cases as well as commercial litigation. And once I understood and learned about IP, that became the key to unlocking the next steps in my career and tech. So obviously, I had never done tech before in my career, I was doing mostly labor and employment, some PII, some civil rights. You know, at that point in time, in my career, I had never really thought about tech, I didn't have a technical background, I didn't have a science background. You know, I didn't really take any IP courses in school. It just didn't occur to me to be something that I could do. And I always felt kind of barred from it. You know, I didn't know if I had to be a patent attorney and take the past. And that was all up to me. I was like, No way am I doing? No, I don't even understand what they're talking about. But this stint at this boutique IP firm really gave me that confidence and knowledge that I was adaptable and flexible and can learn quickly, regardless of the area of law that I was in. So I was able to learn a lot, and kind of parlay that into a skill set suitable for Tech, I was able to join a top consulting firm as a commercial counsel, utilizing my skill set and IP litigation, and my knowledge of litigation in general. So I had never really done commercial contracting work before, though, there was kind of a steep learning curve. But the draw that I was able to make was my experience in litigation will help me to be a better drafter. I know what ends up going to litigation, I understand how it will play out, I can anticipate these issues and the drafting, versus the kind of being dealt with at a litigation stage. And that was a really persuasive argument for this company. And they hired me on despite me not really having that background and commercial contracting, I was able to adapt and flex pretty quickly and learn how to do it with some help from great colleagues such as yourself. Yes. Some other wonderful folks at CES,

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 48:28

you had somebody who had worked with you early on in your government litigation career, to vouch for you. So basically, a bit of a sponsor.

Saira Alikhan: 48:39

Yes, I had a great sponsor. I had a really great friend and colleague, that also worked there that recommended me. You know, like I mentioned, a lot of us at the state legal team, we're close. And so she had moved on to this consulting firm and knew that I was kind of looking to make a career jump because I really did need to make more money. And she recommended me and that sponsorship really helped me out, you know, as well as my, the experience that I was bringing to that role.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 49:23

Okay, wonderful. So we have covered a lot of ground today. You have taken us through each of your career trajectory. We've explored each of the stops on that path. Looked at the transferable skills that have gone and fed into the next role and you're continuing to grow and expand which I love. You know, you're not you're not kind of stopping saying well, this is this I'm just gonna stop here. And, you know, this is this is the best it's gonna be for me you continue to seek and look for I look for what is you're looking for balance between what it is you love to do. And you know the economic package that you need to be able to be comfortable with. I've loved I've loved hearing about your journey, what pivot pearls of wisdom would you leave our listeners with today?

Saira Alikhan: 50:27

We've hit a lot of them, you know, there's been so many gems and this already. But the main points are to basically always be adaptable, always be flexible, be open to different experiences. For me, if I had plotted or charted my career progression, coming out of law school, it would not have looked like this. And I took leaps of faith, and I did things that, you know, I maybe would not have done, but they all led me to a new opportunity, a better opportunity, and gave me more tools for my arsenal and skill set. And I think that's huge, just being open. And, you know, the themes that we talked about earlier, try to get that network, build that network, really keep it up, nurture that network, find sponsorship, it's really important to have that. If you don't, you're just swimming in a pool of real sharks, it's difficult really advance and especially in a big city with a very large legal community, it can start to get small once you get to know folks. And you'll get to know the players. And when you get a relationship with them, those people will think about you and you'll be top of mind for for various opportunities. That's what got me this role that I have currently at Google is, you know, somebody that I worked with, at the consulting firm moved over to Google and thought about me as being somebody that would be a good fit for the role that I'm currently in now. And I would have never thought that I would be working at Google. That is not something that I would have charted on my career path. I didn't even think it was something that I could achieve. And it has been a huge milestone for me, because not many people can say that they work at Google, the interview process is, is pretty, pretty difficult. So you know, it's it's something that I wear with a badge of honor.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel: 52:51

Wonderful, great. I can completely relate to all of that. Yep, I remember that. I did not think that I would ever have a career in Tech because I didn't have that patent background. I didn't have the technical undergraduate degree that I, I thought you needed this is just kind of going off of just not maybe if my network had been bigger, or different. Maybe I would have understood the role of a commercial lawyer in any corporation and how that skill set transfers across industries. And when our recruiter from a tech company reached out to me and they were like, Oh my God, we love your commercial skill set. And I was like my wife. She says, oh, yeah, we need we need a lawyer to draft complex commercial agreements. And it was like Facebook or something. It's not Facebook anymore, but it was Facebook. And I was just like, Whoa, I didn't realize that my skill set fit within tech. And then I started to kind of look so yes, I can relate to all of that. Well, thank you so much. Saira, this has been wonderful, excited for people to listen to this episode. And can't wait to get feedback.

Saira Alikhan: 54:08

Thank you so much, Rhonda. It was really great talking to you today.