Dawn Anderson-Thurmond: Embracing Identity and Defining Success

In this episode, Dawn Anderson-Thurmond takes us on an inspiring journey from her roots in Hamilton, Ohio, to her impactful role as Interim COO for YWCA Hamilton. Growing up in a tight-knit, predominantly African American community, she learned resilience, kindness, and independence from her supportive family. Dawn shares how stepping outside her comfort zone broadened her horizons and empowered her to redefine success on her own terms. From navigating academic setbacks and a career in the justice system to finding purpose in mental health advocacy, her story is a testament to perseverance and self-discovery. Tune in as Dawn reflects on overcoming adversity, embracing her identity, and the transformative power of self-care.

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro and Background
• 1:50 Defining Our Own Meaning of Success
• 7:25 The Power of Supportive Family and Empowering Voices
• 16:22 Exploring Different Environments and Expanding Perspectives
• 25:41 Embracing Identity and Defining Success
• 30:38 Journey of Self-Discovery and Empowerment
• 41:55 Navigating Challenges in the Criminal Justice System
• 53:35 Supporting Marginalized Communities
• 56:19 The Importance of Self-Care in High-Stress Work

Transcript

Hi Dawn, welcome to the podcast.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (01:44)
Hi Rhonda, thank you for having me. How are you?

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (01:49)
I'm doing pretty good this morning. Thanks for asking. Just came off a little two day mommy time trip. I needed a little me time after a three week vacation with all of my family members. So I'm feeling energized.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (02:11)
Well, good for you. We can all use as much vacation and rejuvenation, mommy, and getaway time as anybody. So kudos to that. I am in need of it as well. And I feel a little guilty because I had a vacation in July, but it's almost September, so it might be time for another.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (02:30)
Yes, I think so. Okay,

so currently you are interim chief operating officer for YWCA Hamilton in Ohio. And awesome, and I think that's a fairly new appointment. You recently appointed to that position, so congratulations.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (02:52)
That's correct.

Well, thank you very much.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (03:00)
Yep. So we want to get into your story, your journey today, and we're going to explore themes of defining our own meaning of success, charting your own path when life kind of throws you some monkey wrenches and lemons and you have to figure out which way to go. You've done that wonderfully. Sponsorship.

in our career trajectories and how that's been impactful for you. So lots of good, good, good stuff here. But we're going to start with the first one, like family, beginnings. So I know you came from humble beginnings in Ohio, Hamilton, Ohio. So you're actually living where you grew up. Tell me about that or tell us about that.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (03:59)
Yes, I do. I live here. My children grew up here and or are growing up here. I went to school here. I went to elementary and high school here in Hamilton, Ohio. And I still work here currently in Hamilton, Ohio. So I am extremely invested in this community.

I was raised by my mother who was a single mom and it was just me and my mom and my little sister. And probably when I was growing up in Hamilton, I spent most of my time in our local housing project or in a form of subsidized housing. But probably when I was younger, I did not even really notice. And you know, that project looks slightly different today, but

But

when I was growing up, I just lived in an apartment with my mom and my sister. And my mom was, she was meticulous in a way. Like we maintained a spotless home. We always had clean clothes. She made sure we got great health and wellness. We went to dentist and doctors regularly. We went to school. We, I mean, so for probably for a very long time,

I probably didn't notice that I was poor and probably not until I got into middle school and engaged in other activities and I was able to see that, you know, sometimes people live a little bit different and they have some different resources. But yes, I had a great...

upbringing in the sense that, you know, I had a huge family support. Both my maternal and my paternal grandparents were extremely active in my life and both of my grandmothers have been very instrumental in who I am today and I often say my maternal grandmother

was a stay at home mom by all means to me so I saw this lady that poured into me.

what it meant to have a relationship with Christ and how important it was to be kind and loving and respectful and those types of things. And that never left me and it resonates with who I am today. And then my paternal grandmother, whom also loved the Lord too and spent very religious too, but she also demonstrated

exceedingly how important it was, even though she had a husband, to be independent, to be hardworking, to be uncompromising in so many ways. She worked a job, this is the truth, she worked a job for 10, she worked a job for 30 or 40 years, I'm sure, but at one point in her career, she worked at a local distillery and she worked at a nursing home and she went to work every day.

at 7 a in the morning and she got home at 11 30 or midnight. She did this for 10 years. Now I'm not sure she had to. just you know, I think it was part of who she was. She was just hard working 10 years. She did that sometimes. I mean, I recall when she worked one job. I recall when she worked part time, but I also I can't. I mean, I just I guess I couldn't imagine that somebody worked.

a job for 10 years and they went to two jobs, 7 a to 3 p at the distillery and then 4 p to midnight at the nursing home. And I know she worked at the nursing home, not so much because she had to, but because she really enjoyed caring for those elderly people there. Because my grandfather tried to get her to retire for years until he forced her into retirement. He said, you don't have to work both of those jobs, but she did.

And she never missed a day and never was late. I remember she received an award for

working for like 15 years and never missing a day of work and never ever being late. One time she had a car accident on her way to work and she called my grandfather and she said, I need you to come and pick this car up because it's total and I can't and I'm not going to be able to drive it home. And my grandfather, I remember he said, what am I going do with this woman? She don't sit down, she don't stop.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (08:27)
you

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (08:38)
who tears their car up on their way to work and then continues to keep driving and says, hey, come and pick me up. I mean, and then this late, and when she got home and so on the weekends, like she didn't rest. I saw a person who went to their garden that they had and picked beans and picked potatoes. saw her care for her elderly uncles and aunts and relatives here and make sure that they had everything that they need. And I saw her cook Sunday dinner.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (08:41)
Exactly!

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (09:06)
every single Sunday. Like rarely did we go out to eat like if it was a special occasion somebody's birthday but every Sunday she worked two jobs all week long, worked in the home on Saturday and grocery store and clean and Sunday morning got up extra early to cook Sunday dinner so that when she came home all she had to do is heat it up. So two very different women and my mom but

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (09:14)
Mm

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (09:32)
I mean, they poured into me instrumentally all the time and they were always encouraging and always had a word of empowerment. And you can do this before long before I knew what empowerment was or what they were teaching me. so, yeah, I mean, I grew up on food stamps and welfare and Medicaid, but in so many ways, I didn't notice it until I got much older.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (09:46)
Mm -hmm

Yeah, so that's amazing. I'm hearing that you had beautiful examples of how to nurture, how to encourage, beautiful examples of commitment, examples of living out your purpose, following your passions. One of your grandmothers, she didn't have to work the second job, but there was something in her that pulled her to caring for.

those people that she listened to and it drove her. it energized her is what it sounded like, because she still had energy to care for her own family on the weekends by cooking beautiful meals. And we know there's lots of love that goes into those meals and lots of love around the table when people are eating them. So love, all of that is beautiful.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (10:53)
Yes.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (10:56)
beautiful.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (10:56)
Absolutely.

And although we live in the Midwest, and I've only known my grandmother to live in the Midwest, she was actually born in New York City and raised in a little bitty town called Albany, Georgia most of her life. So by the time she moved here, and I think my father was probably maybe 10 at the time that they moved here, I only know her to live in the Midwest, but.

She was very much a southern girl. And then my other grandmother, she was born and raised here. She lived in the Midwest all of her life.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (11:33)
Love that. Love all of that. So I know you said you didn't know that you were four until you were older or until you experienced a contrast to your existence. And I think, I don't know, there's something very interesting and beautiful in that for me. Because growing up, I grew up in like a predominantly

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (11:49)
Mm

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (12:02)
black environment, purposefully probably curated by my parents who were born in 44 and 45 and grew up during Jim Crow. that was my and everybody, know, I mean, nobody was rich. were no millionaires and billionaires in most of my middle class. if everybody's the same,

economically, then you're not thinking, you're not you thinking that's the norm. That's what everybody, you know, up until you're 12, 13 years old, that's your that's your normal. And that's, that's a happy balance to your healthy, you know, everybody's thriving from what you can see. So how does it feel when you experience a contrast to that? And you say, Whoa,

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (12:43)
Mm -hmm.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (13:01)
The world doesn't think that my living experience is the premier way to be. So can you explain your experience with that? Because I know you moved into a house for a few years and in a different neighborhood. And so that might have been like the catalyst for Trigger. I'm not sure you tell us.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (13:25)
So yes, and actually, yeah, I moved into a home at one point and the home belonged to my aunt and uncle who I would probably say were middle class. But I wanna say, so I guess like I lived in a predominantly African American.

area, so my community at large, so all of the places that I could walk to, which were my grandparents, my neighborhood, my school. I would say that it was predominantly Black, but I went to school and even high school and junior high in predominantly White areas. I would say what I say.

knowing what I know now, I mean, it was just concentrated. This is where the black people lived. And so that's whom I happen to be around and the houses, most of our neighbors and things. mean, they were black. so, yes. And I would say that, you know, I grew up in the projects, but because my grandparents and both sets were so supportive, I mean, we always had all of our needs met generally.

And I remember my uncle and aunt who were probably middle class at the time, but I didn't know anything about that. And, you know, they both worked two families. sent their children to private school and I went to public school, but I mean, it was still in the same community, but they their job took them someplace else. And so they moved, but they had a home. And so they allowed me and my mom and my sister to stay in it.

I'm pretty sure at no cost. So we probably stayed there at no cost. And so that was probably right around the time that I was getting into an upper level school. So maybe like the seventh grade or something. And I am.

while I had went to elementary school with a certain group of people, now I was going to a junior high school and people from other areas and other elementary schools, you know, they were all going to that school. So met new people and realized that, you know, some of my friends that didn't necessarily come from my neighborhood as I went to their homes and saw, you know, people live completely different and they had.

garages and swimming pools and I was like, you know, I realized people live differently. and, but I was living in a home at that time. And so people had come to my home and they didn't necessarily know the circumstance or the situation that my aunt, my aunt was the owner of the home. And I

you know, she had allowed me and my mom to stay there. They probably just assumed, you know, we could afford it or whatever. And it was a nice house by all means at the time. And so, you know, people, I would go over to stay at their houses and sometimes they would come over to stay at mine. But as it should have it, I moved a lot when I was a young person. And so at some point I ended up back at my grandparents' home, but ultimately back into...

a local project community again. I remember the first time they had dropped my friends, parents would sometimes drop me off and then they had to drop me off at my new place. And it

And it was the projects. And I remember feeling a bit odd, like they might not feel like it's safe for their child to come here and stay the night or something. And so for me, I saw a bit of a change and I don't want to say, I don't know. mean, maybe I'm not sure. Maybe I was a little bit embarrassed at the time, like, this is different or that I live in a different way, but.

It was interesting and then even much more so as I went to high school and met more people and things changed and dynamics changed.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (17:25)
Okay.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, I think what it is, mean, you kind of it's a bit jarring for the psyche, I think you have been kind of in a bubble and in a community bubble. And then you realize when you get older, like, my bubble is just one small bubble in this entire world or globe. And you thought you knew your place in the world and the bubble. But then you get

into the world and you're like, whoa, where is my place? And now you've got external opinions telling you where your place is, right? Societal cultural structures. And that clashes with your place within your community, which is safe. It's very safe.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (18:17)
Mm -hmm.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (18:29)
and you know where it is and you're loved and you're accepted and everything's fine. It's almost like a version of a utopia without, obviously everything's not perfect, but kind of, you know, because you were a child and you grew up in that. so now it's like, whoa, like this group and that group and this group and their levels and their classes and their races, you know, so you've got all of this to sort through to find a new place in the world.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (18:42)
Thank you.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (18:58)
So that's kind of what I'm hearing, what I'm seeing. Okay.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (19:02)
Absolutely. And some of my friends, you know, as we transition from junior high to high school, and I thought, and it was very challenging for me because I have one particular white friend and I thought, we're friends, we're gonna be friends forever. And it was much more...

orchestrated and I think strategic because I think her parents never had intended for her to maintain a relationship with me as we got into high school. And so as she sort of said, know, hey, I'm gonna be hanging with some other people and spent a lot less time with me.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (19:42)
Mm -hmm.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (19:42)
In some ways,

I just couldn't believe it. was like, what do you mean? I was used to my friends that I had grew up with in a community. It didn't matter what school we went to or what activities we had got in. We were going to be friends forever. And some I am friends to this day. But that relationship changed significantly. But it also opened up my eyes to, people feel differently about you. And they want their children to be associated with a

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (19:53)
Right.

Good work, you know.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (20:10)
certain type of person and you didn't for a number of reasons. know, I didn't have two parents. I didn't have such and such and so not all but some people felt that way.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (20:10)
Great.

And how do you as a child like not internalize that experience, right? How does that not you know what I mean? How? do you walk through that? Because that could be that could be a traumatic experience something that kind of stains your stains your person or your emotion for a long time and that's yeah, there's so much

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (20:29)
Right, right.

And it could, it really could, but I would say probably the resiliency and fortitude of all of the women in my life, including my friends and their parents, but especially my mom and my grandparents.

They did lots to encourage me and let me know how beautiful I was and how powerful I was and how capable I was because I think more than anything they realized that I was going to encounter that much more often in my experiences as I grew older and so maybe they were trying to compensate for the things that I were going to hear at school and learn at school or not learn or not be exposed to as a result of who I am. I remember

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (21:34)
Yes.

So you need a trust, you need a trusted voice to counter that foolishness. So that it means nothing to you, right? Thank God for that. You know what I mean? Cause the world can be cruel. Cause if it was just that experience, that could be like, my God, I'm not good enough to be her friend. But then you had somebody telling you, they're, they're idiots. You are, she's not good enough to be your friend.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (21:36)
I remember.

Yeah!

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (22:04)
you what I mean? Or the way her parents are dealing with the situation or her parents are not good enough to be your friends. So you definitely need somebody to contextualize things for you. And thank God you had that. Sorry, I cut you off. I didn't want to.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (22:18)
Absolutely.

No, no, I appreciate that because I would go on to experience lots more. mean, I was a high school cheerleader and I mean.

I had a great time in high school. I want to be very clear about that. I don't want to change any of the experiences. mean, high school was fun. I enjoy kicking it. But I cheered with pretty much the same girls for three or four years while I was in high school. And you start to think that some of the cheerleaders are your friends. And I remember very vividly, we were cheering on the court. And one of the athletes in the stands that

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (22:36)
Absolutely.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (23:00)
called the cheerleader a name and he was making fun of a body part. I think it was her nose or something. like literally Rhonda, me right next to her cheering and she looked over at him and said, you nigger. And I was like, what? I was like, are you kidding me? Like.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (23:07)
you

my God.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (23:21)
And I get that she was upset and she was insecure and he had said something about her and people were laughing. But I thought to myself, yeah, but you could have said something about his big head or anything. mean, she just.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (23:28)
But give me a break.

Thank you so much.

Yes!

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (23:37)
blurted out a racial slur while I was cheering winner. And I remember, I mean, it was just hurtful, some of the realization. And I vividly remember the basketball coach, Coach Smith, wherever he is out there, was a lovely guy and I enjoyed him and I liked him. And I remember I was a freshman and he said to me in school, he said, he was my algebra teacher, but he was also the basketball coach. he, you know,

He saw me sometimes, I guess, as a cheerleader, but he was the basketball coach and he was my algebra teacher. But I remember him saying, know, Dawn, are not going to, that smile isn't going to get you through life, nor is it going to help you pass this class. And I just remember laughing at the time that he said it saying, like, gosh, that's what he said to me. then he ended it with, you you be sure to call me if you ever graduate from college.

And at the time, I just thought, Coach Smith is just being a little hard on me or shooting the shit, but he wasn't doing anything to be helpful. And as an adult and as I got older and I remembered what he said to me, I guess I was a little appalled. And I probably, if a teacher had said that comment to my child.

now, and I didn't share it with my parents or anybody. I might have told some of my friends like, listen what Coach Smith said, but if somebody had said that to my child now, I'd probably be at the school talking to that teacher, maybe even their principal and letting them know how inappropriate they are and possibly that they shouldn't even be employed as somebody that has the ability to say those things to a child, not somebody that's in a leadership role or somebody that definitely has power.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (25:09)
Absolutely.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (25:27)
are over these students. so I don't know. I I just I think I grew up in a time where there was definitely an expectation for me and what I should be doing or what I could have been doing and how I should end up.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (25:38)
Mm -hmm.

Yes, yes. So, you know, I remember you telling me about this, what this coach slash algebra teacher said to you. And because he was your math teacher and basically telling you, you're not going to get ahead on your intellect. You're not that smart. And and you're not even that pretty because

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (25:51)
Mm -hmm.

Yes!

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (26:06)
if you think that smile of yours is going to get you by that's not going to get you by either so all of that is just fucking messed up excuse my language and

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (26:19)
bad guy? I'm just like, I don't know. Look at me trying to defend Coach Smith now. He's a terrible guy.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (26:21)
No, and we're not saying he's a bad guy. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, but no different thing. He's not a

bad guy, but his opinion of a student that could have been very damaging should have stayed in his head. And first of all, he shouldn't have done first place. That should not have been his opinion of you in the first place, because to me that says he didn't see you.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (26:46)
No!

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (26:50)
because your intellect and resilience and you're beautiful by the way, your intellect, I'm sure that smile can still get you in a lot of, it's what has driven you and helped you build this successful, tremendous career of yours. yeah, no, so he was wrong for that. And the fact that you remember it says that it made an impact.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (27:00)
Hahaha

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (27:20)
on you.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (27:21)
And I wish I didn't remember it because I'm sure there were other teachers along the way that were much more encouraging and supportive and pouring into us great leadership skills and all of those other things. And I don't know why I remember that. Well, I know why I remember it because on some level, it subconsciously it bothered me, but I just remember it.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (27:41)
Yes, we know why.

Yeah,

yeah, yep. Okay, so you graduated high school and you went to college. You went to the University of Cincinnati. You had a core group of girlfriends, which I love. There are like four of you and three of your girlfriends went to HBCUs and you went to University of Cincinnati. Cincinnati, excuse me.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (27:58)
Go Bearcats! Go Bearcats!

Mm -hmm.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (28:15)
So talk about that, because I you said you used to go down and have fun, which I love this. You would go down and party, hang out, visit your girlfriends. For me, you're very outgoing. You're very open to experiences in the world and you're an explorer. So all this is positive.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (28:27)
I did, I did.

Yes it is, I like that. I'm open to experiences.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (28:39)
Yes,

so you went and what was it like to set because you grew up in Hamilton, Ohio, which is is tell me what the racial it sounds white to me, but you tell me.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (28:53)
It is,

so you know, in 2024, it's looking very different and we have a huge Hispanic population that is growing in Hamilton. And I think it, if I'm not up on the census, but I would say that it is much larger than the African -American population currently where we live. But when I grew up, yes, it was predominantly white.

And so, yeah, I was used to that. But, you know, my core group of girlfriends from high school, they were all getting ready to embark on a very different experience. They were going to historical black colleges and universities, and they were going to be surrounded by communities that looked different. And I was going to a PWI, and I would be in a community for school that looked

very similar to what I had grown up in. But yes, like you said, I was an explorer. So any opportunity I got, I made sure to go visit my girlfriends at their schools. So I made it out to Hampton. I made it to Central State and I made it to Spelman. And I distinctively remember

one of, spent, it must've been a long weekend there at Spelman with Brandy and I don't know what they were having, but it was something that I didn't even, you I was very unfamiliar with, but you know, I got an opportunity to engage with some of her friends and the girls that lived in the dorm and I was surrounded by black and brown people all over at the AUC. So, you know, and,

It was just very different. you know, I was surrounded by people who looked like me, who had physical shapes like me, who were embracing those physical shapes, who had hair like me and didn't feel the need to straighten it. I remember it was probably the first time that, you know, I saw girls, teenagers, young adults my age, embracing everything about their curls and coils and, you know, sort of

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (30:44)
Mm -hmm.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (31:08)
saying a relaxer, what's that? We don't even know what that is. We don't use those types of products on our hair. And it was great. I'm not saying that I didn't have a good time at my university because I really did. And my girlfriends came and partied with me at the University of Cincinnati. They got memories right now. They're talking about it. I got a text message from

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (31:12)
Yeah.

Thank

Cooler, cooler.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (31:32)
One of my girlfriends that lives in Chicago the other day, sending me a picture of a guy that we used to hang out with at UC. She was like, remember him. So yes, they shared memories with me, but it was just always very different when I went to see them. for me, it was a realization that, know.

the community that I've grown up in or my little bubble as you reference it. I mean, it's just really so small and so insignificant in so many ways. And it really gave me a.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (32:02)
But

yeah, but also like the contrast. So when you are dropped into this all black, powerful, strong pod of women, right? From all over the world, really. You're like, whoa, my bubble is much bigger than I thought. know what I'm... So now you've got a global bubble and not just a small community bubble.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (32:18)
Yes!

Hahaha!

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (32:30)
to find yourself within and find love for who you are as a woman and a woman of color at a global level. So I think that's very empowering and something that provides strength. Because you're like, yeah.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (32:48)
Absolutely, definitely

a realization that we are everywhere and we're not just living in Hamilton and having the experience that you are having in Hamilton, but we are on the West Coast, we are on the East Coast, we are in the South, we are doing all of the things and we are embracing ourselves wherever we at and we are being supportive and uplifting and encouraging to one another and saying, hey girl, come on over, let me show you this.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (33:02)
Yes.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (33:16)
And I just recall that experience with Brandy and Spellman as being one where these girls didn't know me and they were from all over and they were very welcoming at the same time. Like, hey, Dawn, yes, this is whatever dress up night, so let's get you together so you can be like us.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (33:16)
Yep.

Mm

Yes, love that. So, Cincinnati, you're in university and you are put on academic probation. Tell me what that was like. We're jumping all the way to that.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (33:49)
yes.

Yes, let's get me. So, so yes, I was I was having a really good time and I was going to see folks and I was and and this is very odd because one of the one of my good friends from the University of Cincinnati, she she just was the opposite of me, I believe. She just I think she just was exposed to something different. I was a first generation college student and

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (33:58)
Hahaha

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (34:19)
Nobody had really done that in my family. I had an older cousin. She had gone on to college already, two of them maybe in fact, but I was the third oldest of the cousins. So we did not come from lots of college graduates. I didn't really have a playbook and my parents hadn't experienced, Dawn, this is what it's gonna be like when you go to the university. This is what you're gonna see. This is what you're gonna do. You're gonna have to.

you know, really buckle down and do your work. Nobody's going to tell you, nobody's going to follow up, the professor's not even going to care if you don't turn in assignments all week. And while I had heard some of that, I guess I really had not ever had to experience it as going from high school to college. And so I had a good time. this, I...

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (34:50)
gonna do it.

it.

Mm -hmm.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (35:08)
I like a good time. My running group right now, they named me The Party on their own. They didn't know me as a high school person or whatever, but when they met me and I went on a couple runs and they assigned nicknames to people, they said, we call you The Party. And it's true, that's just who I am. I like to have a good time, I like to laugh, I like to, and it doesn't require me to have lots of alcohol or any of that stuff to do it. I just enjoy.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (35:14)
Yeah.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (35:34)
being fun and exciting. So I did, I had so much fun by my second year at the University of Cincinnati. They said, you take a break and don't you come back now. So academic probation landed me an opportunity to get a job. And so they're like, you don't want to do school for 40 hours a week. I guess you can get a job and do 40 hours a week.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (35:45)
Yes.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (36:02)
at that. so I did. And I remember being, I had an overwhelming sense of anxiety. Here I was, my girlfriends aren't going to school and doing what they're supposed to do and experience in life. And I was asked to take a break. Not really so much a hack, I mean, academic probation led to...

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (36:15)
Okay.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (36:27)
hey, you can't come back because even once you were on academic probation, you still didn't perform enough. And so, yeah, it was a, and I just remember saying, I remember having this conversation at one point with my grandparents, because I was embarrassed and I had to say, hey, I'm not going to school right now, but I'm gonna be okay. And I remember my grandfather and my grandmother saying, well, absolutely you're gonna be okay. And I think that,

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (36:27)
Mm

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (36:56)
That was probably one of the first times that I was like, you know what? You have had a detour. You have had to pivot. Something didn't go the way you had anticipated. But they didn't say, you know, this is terrible or whatever. They were like, we have no doubt. We have all confidence and faith in your abilities. And you are absolutely going to be fine. so in some ways, was almost a, let's go do what you got to do now.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (37:07)
Mm

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (37:26)
Go back to school when you get ready. And so that landed me a job and I went to work for a couple of years or three or something.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (37:35)
Okay. Okay,

so you landed a position at the juvenile detention center where you built a career there, a 10 -year career. So can you tell us a little bit about this? During that 10 years, you went back to school and you got a degree, I think in criminal justice, is that correct?

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (37:41)
I do.

Yes, that's correct, Rhonda, you know me. It was good that I got the opportunity. I was already a criminal justice major at the University of Cincinnati, but then I got the job at the Juvenile Detention Center. And I think back about the individuals who were in charge at that time. I mean, I came from a...

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (38:00)
Thank you.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (38:24)
My grandmother was a hard worker, so I knew how to be a hard worker and I probably was young. So there were times where, you know, I called off or didn't do things I was supposed to do at work. And now I'm like, man, you know, I felt like they were a bit hard on me, but I was a good worker. So I had a nine, almost 10 year tenure at that place. And at the time I didn't really recognize it, but at the time,

I started to work there and I was probably 19, I was probably 19 or 20 years old or 19 getting ready to turn 20. So my career started when I was about 20 years old there. And I wasn't really that much older than the individuals that I was seeing in, the juvenile detention center. But at my,

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (39:17)
Mm

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (39:22)
I know that my mind and my perspective was, know, I'm the adult, I'm the professional here. You are the younger person, but in reality, some of those people were just four or five years younger than me. And I was just a juvenile corrections officer there. And I met a lot of those. So when I first started, was...

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (39:37)
Mm

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (39:51)
they call me Miss Dawn or whatever they call you by your first name and that was fine. I didn't mind that. you know, I would get an opportunity to spend time with them. And so we would draw, we would do things, you know, different community resources would come in. And so, you know, we'd have groups where maybe it was a church group or maybe it was a educational resource group or something. And I'd get to sit in with them and I'd get to.

talk and listen to them and hear their stories. And I always try to encourage and just do my job a bit differently. I I realized these were individuals and someone's children, and many of them had no parents or guidance. And their status offenses eventually turned into real criminal offenses and had an opportunity to just see that.

These are young people who need leadership and guidance much like myself. And so, yes, and I eventually went back to school while I was working there. so, and I earned my degree and had my first child while I was working there. And that really was the catalyst for me saying, okay, Dawn, you're working here. You've got, you know, you have a job.

there are some things you probably wanna do differently. It was really like a, it really was. So me getting pregnant and with my oldest son led me to say, you know that you want a life that is a bit different than what you had. You wanted him to have access to some additional resources. I wanted him to see his mother as somebody.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (41:37)
Thank you.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (41:43)
you know, who was strong and capable and, you know, providing a healthy environment for him. And so I was like, Dawn, you got to get back to school. So I went back to school and this is like, no kidding. I made the Dean list every semester and it wasn't, and I was like, you know, I just was like, I just think, you know, I wasn't ready. And because when I did that, I was like, it wasn't hard. And here I was an adult with a kid.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (41:57)
Thank you.

We'll

Yeah.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (42:08)
placing my report card on my grandparents refrigerator every time I got it. Because I wanted to know, this girl is quite capable. She just was, you know, she was having a good time at that point. But you know, when she wanted to buckle down, she could.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (42:21)
Yeah, no, I love that. I love that there's so much in that. So one, children are gifts in just so many ways. They make us turn into the best versions of ourselves. They're big motivators, which I love that. And you weren't ready. You just weren't ready. You wanted to do something different. Maybe you should have taken a gap year or two, right? Which is something that's embraced now. But then it's kind of like, no, you know, I'm going to...

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (42:32)
Yeah.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (42:49)
go from high school straight to college, you know.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (42:52)
That's what everybody was doing. In a gap year, it is completely okay for the President of the United States children to take a gap year, but nobody was telling me about a gap year. They were like, my gosh, if you're not going to go to college, you're like a failure. Your life's going to be terrible. There is no hope for you. When yes, there is such a thing and it's okay for them. So, you know, it just needed to be presented differently to me.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (43:02)
Yes.

huh.

Exactly, exactly. So you got your degree, you continued to work in the juvenile detention center and after 10 years you felt like you needed to make a change. Can you tell us what brought that on and then what did you pivot into? Because it's very interesting, I want to hear about it.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (43:36)
So, yes, as I was finishing up my degree at the University of Cincinnati, I'm sure I attended several career fairs. And although I had a, I'm pretty sure I attended a career fair that was for my college, the College of Criminal Justice and Education. But there were executives there from Target stores. And so they said,

you know, hey, we know you have a degree in criminal justice, but you know, this is retail, but we want to show you how you can be an executive for our stores. And shortly after I graduated, I transitioned to working for Target. And I love Target to this day. You know, I just stayed there for a few years, so it did not end up being

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (44:25)
yeah.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (44:30)
what I had anticipated and while I was an executive for their assets protection, so I worked kind of in the loss prevention sector, it was still very much retail and I don't think my heart was in retail because sometimes even as an executive of assets protection or loss prevention, they might need me to set an end cap or something and I'm like.

Okay, I'm not passionate about NCAPS. I gotta get outta here. So my target executive time, I mean, it was good, but you know, it was for a short period. Maybe two or three years. I probably need to check my resume and see. But yeah, so I started off there after I left. Then at one point in my life and probably right before I took

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (45:01)
you

Let's see.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (45:25)
the target position. I was finishing school, going to school full time, working full time and planning my wedding. And that was probably one of the most challenging times in my life where I was like, you know, this is a full overload and good thing that I have a supportive mom and stepmom and grandparents. And we really had a community because lots of people did so much to help me with my son.

that I was able to do all of that and sort of transition into a different part of my career. And then took a few years off as I had more children after that. And then several years later ended up in the adult justice system, working. Sometimes now when I talk. So at my current job,

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (46:03)
Mm

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (46:24)
We often go out in the community and share messages about domestic violence awareness, especially during the month of October. sometimes I actively participate in women in corrections. So women who work in our local prisons and jails. And I go and talk to them. And so sometimes I lead with, was, you know, I was.

once in jail before too, and I spent a few years, but in a very different way. So they find it interesting. And then sometimes I'll even share an old picture of me in my adult corrections officer uniform and people are like, what? And I'm like, yeah, isn't that funny? So far from it.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (47:10)
So I know, yeah,

yeah, yeah. So I know you said when you transitioned to working in an adult prison that you would see some of the children who had been in the juvenile detention center. And when you saw that, you know, I'm sure it probably broke your heart. It breaks my heart. And you were like, this is a problem. Like, I want to do something about this. I want to...

do something about this. And I also remember, you know, you were talking about your ex telling me about your experience working at the prison. And if you could quickly just tell us how toxic that was with your

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (47:52)
Yes, so

it was the jail. So it's our local jail, but it is a very large jail. we take on immigration and custom detainees. So we are one of the few local jails that will house ICE immigrants. And so it was a new jail. And it wasn't new, but it, yeah, so it is a very large jail. And yes, so I went there and

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (48:00)
Okay.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (48:21)
some, it was, I guess I didn't really, I was still kind of young, so I was in my early 30s and I did not realize that the folks that I had worked with in the juvenile justice system had just sort of transitioned and I remember some of the first times I had walked onto a pod and then,

people were like, Ms. Dawn? And I'm like, my gosh, you know? In some ways it was heartbreaking and in other ways I was just like, you know, maybe you didn't really recognize it or think about it that these individuals would be transitioning to this, you know, without the right leadership and guidance. And honestly, because I had spent so much time in the juvenile justice system,

I felt like, I mean, I really knew these people, because some of those folks in the 10 years I had worked there had been in and out of the juvenile justice system for maybe five or seven years. And then five or so years later to see them again, but in a different capacity. I mean, it was heartbreaking. It really was. And so, yes, and it was very challenging to be.

in that environment. So while I had a degree in criminal justice and I was extremely passionate about the criminal justice system and police science, it was very difficult for me to be in the jail and in that capacity and especially where I worked. And I mean, it's hurtful to say because in some ways I felt like, yes,

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (50:05)
Mm -hmm.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (50:13)
the not all, but some of the officers that work there. was.

we should vet individuals more that are going to be working with people who have experienced significant trauma, people who are marginalized, people who have severe and persistent mental illness because those individuals end up in jail as well. And I was just surrounded by lots of folks who probably didn't have as much respect for humanity as I would have liked and weren't all good humans.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (50:29)
Mm

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (50:49)
had a degree of racism and a whole bunch of other things, had a lot of spouses working in the place together. So it just got, it was terrifying. I remember I was working there, the president of the United States was an African -American man. And so people would come to work in their trucks, you know, talking with big signs that said, the president. I mean, it was like awful. And I was like, gosh.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (50:57)
Mm -hmm.

I'm to go.

you

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (51:20)
And in some ways, sometimes the inmates, I know I share it with you that at one point I worked on the mental health pod, but it was also the pod that had protective custody folks. And so people who had committed some of the worst crimes locally. if they had murdered or raped somebody or kidnapped or whatever, but

Also, while you were on those pods, the inmates are the people that help you on the pod. So I forget, and I might be, it's been a minute, but they might have been called like the trustees or the pod workers or something. I don't know, but they help clean the pod for you. They help do all the stuff. So after a while, for me, because I wasn't a road corrections officer, I worked for the sheriff's department inside the jail. I worked with the inmates.

those were the people that helped me maintain the pod. so oftentimes some of the people that I would see on the news or hear about their case on the news, how terrible they were and all of that stuff. But I mean, they weren't the ones that were helping me maintain the pod.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (52:18)
Mm

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (52:37)
keep it clean and doing all of the things that assist the corrections officers. So you got to know that individual in a very different way. And sometimes the inmates were much more respectful and friendly or pleasant and kind than some of the corrections officers. And so I was just like, yes, I need to get out of here because I really want to help people and not in this way.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (52:42)
Mm -hmm.

Right.

Okay.

Right, okay. So you left the jail system, quickly left. I mean, I know you mentioned that it kind of starts to up in your physical health. You started to get migraines and that was very scary for you. And we are getting to the end of time. So I'm gonna rush us along a bit, but you were having migraines that showed up in your work.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (53:11)
you

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (53:29)
So that's a, can you tell us a little bit about that in just a minute or so?

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (53:34)
Yes.

I had never had a headache really before in my life. was 30 something years old. I never experienced headaches. didn't really get sick. I would have said that I was a pretty healthy individual, but my mom had a few years past had suffered a stroke because of a rare brain disease that she had. And so I was getting paranoid like, my gosh, you know, is this showing up for me? And I remember going to the doctor and I was saying, you know, you know, I'm getting these headaches, you know, three or four times a week and it's a

about

this time and it starts here. And they really listened to me and they said, you know, I think that these are, you know, sort of situational induced migraines and they give me medicine for it and it go away. But once I no longer.

was working at the sheriff's department, I didn't have those migraines. So I was able to stop taking the medication. I'd be fine all day, and then I'd get to work. And about an hour after I had arrived at work, my head would start hurting. I mean, it was just a terrible headache. And I was like, why am I having these headaches? And so I think that it was contributing to.

poor health and probably not just for me, but for lots of individuals. And I'm not, you there are great corrections officers and people are doing a great job there, but it is very difficult work. And without proper supports could probably impact our health.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (54:54)
Mm -hmm.

Okay.

Okay, and so where did you go? What type of work did you move into when you left the jail system?

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (55:16)
Once I left the jail system, I went to work with individuals with severe and persistent mental illness at a social service agency. And I was a case manager. And I would say probably at that point, I realized that I was.

providing a service to others in a different way, but in a much more helpful way. And I met a young lady named Monica, who was my first...

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (55:48)
Thank you.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (55:50)
Kate, a supervisor in social services. And I remember going on the interview and saying, it was like I had a conversation with somebody and I didn't really feel like an interview. She was a lovely individual and I could tell that she liked me as well. And so that started my trajectory of working with individuals in our community with severe and persistent mental illness individuals who had been...

really experiencing some difficult times, probably some of the worst times in their lives and marginalized individuals, individuals in my community that I could absolutely relate to living in public housing and living in some of the same neighborhoods and requiring someone to have an advocacy and be a voice for them. And so it really was probably the first time when I was like, ooh, my job doesn't feel like work. I absolutely love it. And I really developed

a great relationship with my supervisor at the time. And so we then sort of, I mean, I guess I sort of followed or she took me, but we worked at three separate places together within the trajectory. And we actually helped build and create a marvelous case management programs at another agency together. And then we worked for healthy moms and babes together. I mean, it had been a great and we just.

We really clicked and I think that I got to learn a lot from her, but I also think that she saw a lot in me and my abilities and she was great. She really poured into me and she believed in me and she was like, yes, you can do this, this and this. And so I just continued to grow.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (57:33)
Awesome, awesome,

awesome. So that's wonderful to find a sponsor who becomes a friend. And your work, I'm sure, has always spoken for itself. Monica had no problems bringing you on board or recommending you for positions and opportunities. So that's fantastic. One big question before we move into our end wrap up.

So you are a giver, you you come from nurturers, you are a nurturer, you see, you find oneness in individuals who the society has deemed as being unworthy or society is overlooking, you know, but you find, you see them for who they are, which is a special gift. In your line of work,

because then my sister is in your exact line of work, who I still need to introduce you to, I'm sorry, that I forgot to do that.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (58:33)
No worries,

no worries. I'm excited to meet her.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (58:38)
Yes, yes. It can take a toll on you emotionally because you still have your own family to care for and support and yourself to support. So what do you do? How do you take care of yourself when you are dealing with such, I don't know, stressful situations in your work life?

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (59:03)
Yes, working at places and with the population that we serve, and I'm sure your sister can attest to this too, it is high stress, it's high performing. And for me, it's very different than I have always worked with people. So I haven't had a lot of places where you engage primarily on a computer or doing something like that. It's very different when you're working with individuals and the amount of vicarious trauma

that you experience day to day and that is very heavy but so much of it is these are humans who have needs and require support and consistency and so you can't just you know not show up or not be present or not be able to assist so I find it to be

very challenging sometimes to navigate work -life balance and especially as my family grew and my responsibilities grew and as my loved ones, my grandparents whom I've talked about so much, they're not the same grandparents that were there for me when I was in high school. They're very much there for me, but they're aging so it looks different and how do I support them and how do I come home and be a wife but be present and be a mom and be

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (1:00:22)
Mm

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (1:00:26)
engaged at school, but also help folks do homework and complete projects and teach them how to drive, but also be there for them emotionally as they grow and have different experiences. It's challenging. And so, you know, I try to steal away and get time when I can. I try to be a runner because I think that that helps alleviate a lot of stress. So I run when I get an opportunity, but most importantly.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (1:00:35)
Yes.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (1:00:52)
I have a great set of girlfriends or I call on my board of directors and I have several sets because I can tap into them and get some relief and get some good advice, but also have someone pour into my spirit and say, no, you're, you're doing a lot and it's okay. It's okay to have this happen and that happen. And then, my husband, who is my biggest fan. And so I would say if I, I didn't have him, I probably be in an insane asylum because he

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (1:00:58)
you

Mm -hmm.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (1:01:22)
is going to when I'm 20 % he will be 110 % all day long when I'm 50 % he will be the other 50%. He will always catch me in my spirit but also physically to say it's time to slow down and let's go do something let's go get away. I mean he's amazing so I have a lot of support.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (1:01:32)
moving.

Yeah,

I love that. I'm putting like a heart heart on the screen everybody. I love all of that. Supportive friend group, board of directors, me time, exercise, supportive, loving, encouraging spouse or partner. So that's that's awesome. I love all of that. Thank you so much, John, for being with us today.

So everybody who comes on leaves us with a pivot pearl of wisdom. That's just like a piece of information, wisdom that you want to leave our audience with. You can think about it for a second.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (1:02:29)
I guess my pivot or pearl of wisdom is that nothing is permanent or forever.

not relationships, not situations, not experiences and or friends. Everybody has a season and different seasons and times change everything. And so I have worked with people and I'm like, I cannot stand that person. This is not going to work out. And then I see them or meet them at a different time in my life. And we're going on lunch dates and doing things. Even when I thought, you know, hey, Dawn, you're not going to graduate from college because you

didn't finish, you had to take a break in that moment. I might have felt failure, but you know, as time went on, you know, things changed and I was able to graduate. So I would say that probably my pearl of wisdom is things are always and ever changing and we just have to continue to persevere, continue to show up, continue to be better the next day. situations and circumstances are temporary and they always change and nothing is permanent.

I am living my life, but I know that in some ways I'm on borrowed time and everything is but for a season. Some seasons last forever, some seasons last for six months, some seasons last for 60 years, but it's still a season. And so we have to be prepared for change and new experiences.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (1:04:03)
Awesome awesome. Thank you so much, Dawn. Have a good weekend, and I'll talk to you soon

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (1:04:10)
And thank you Rhonda. I do have to send a shout out to our personal friend, Miss Chrissy, whom I love. And she is in my life for different seasons all the time I say, but no matter what, she is the individual that introduced me to you. I'm so grateful for her and her friendship and allyship. And it doesn't matter if I talk to her twice a year.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (1:04:17)
Yes!

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (1:04:36)
or 20 times in a week. She is 100 % showing up and I appreciate it I'm so grateful for her.

Rhonda Coleman Wandel (1:04:43)
Yes, Chrissy's a beautiful person. Chrissy and I are colleagues. Okay. All right. Bye bye.

Dawn Anderson-Thurmond (1:04:46)
Yes, I love her. Okay.

Bye bye.