Whitney Harper-Redefining Legal Success Through Innovation and Balance

Whitney Harper shares her journey from small-town Florida to a dynamic legal career, reflecting on the power of community, career pivots, and balancing work with family. She discusses her move from firm life to in-house counsel, her innovative legal billing model through Advos Pro, and the importance of agency and well-being in the profession.

Chapters

• 0:00 Growing Up In a Nurturing Community
• 8:59 Confidence and Overcoming Self Doubt
• 12:13 Family Legacy and Role Models
• 17:52 Career Beginnings In Law
• 21:01 Navigating Career Choices and Opportunities
• 30:35 The Superpower of Legal Skills in Business
• 38:30 Balancing Work and Family Life
• 45:19 Revolutionizing Legal Billing with Advos Pro
• 54:14 The P3 Method: A New Approach to Legal Services
• 1:01:00 Building Community: The Advosphere for Lawyers
• 1:02:00 Pivot Pearls: Reflections and Wisdom for Growth

Transcript

Rhonda Coleman (00:00.079)

Hi, Whitney. Welcome to the podcast.

Whitney Harper (00:57.4)
Thanks so much for having me, Rhonda. This is really exciting.

Rhonda Coleman (01:01.184)
Awesome. I'm excited to talk with you today. I was grateful that I met you. My executive coach, Stuart Hirsch, introduced us because he thought that you had an awesome creative business, Advoc.Pro. You created this new innovative way of legal billing. And he thought that I would love to learn about that. And I did. But I got something even better. I got to learn about you.

I always want to know the woman behind the amazing career. So trajectory. All right. So let's start with your family life, how you grew up, where you grew up.

Whitney Harper (01:42.412)
Yeah, so I am a unique breed. I'm a native Floridian. They don't really make those anymore, but I grew up in a little town, Keystone Heights, right outside of Gainesville, Florida. One stoplight. I think they have a blinking light now too. So, you know, it's coming up in the world, but town full of lakes and just an easy, slower pace. You know, one high school, one elementary school, like it's a

Rhonda Coleman (02:02.296)
What?

Whitney Harper (02:12.086)
It's old school small town.

Rhonda Coleman (02:14.954)
Okay. All right. So that though, it seems like that was good for you. Like I spoke with one of my recent podcast guests grew up in a similar town, but in Arkansas, and it was a little limiting for her. She didn't describe it as being a nurturing environment, but it's different experience for you. So can you talk about the nurturing community that your family, your parents created for you in Florida?

Whitney Harper (02:43.244)
Yeah, I loved that experience growing up. My parents were both from Jacksonville and they had kind of a bigger city experience growing up. Although I know Jacksonville is not the biggest city anybody's ever heard of, but for my parents, it was more hustle and bustle than they wanted for their young family. And I think even before they had me, I'm the oldest.

they recognized that they wanted to be in a smaller community environment. And so they moved out to what was my dad's parents' lake house. And they formed some really cool relationships. So they were an hour and a half or more away from all of their siblings and parents. And they sort of adopted themselves into this friend group of three couples, so two other couples.

The Carson's, the Getsman's and the Byrom's and they were so close that they all these people were my aunts and uncles growing up and their children were like my siblings and cousins and all of that. And we still are all very close. So much so that we have formed our own last name. We are the Car Getsby's. Those people have been lifelong support. They've seen us.

Rhonda Coleman (04:01.52)
You

Whitney Harper (04:09.142)
at our best, our worst and everywhere in between. And they've never hesitated to jump in and help or to, as my friend Heather likes to say, to tell us about ourselves when we need to hear it. But they're also the people who are looking out for you, who are gonna step in without you asking and really like be in life together. And that has been tremendous. And I think that sense, my brother and I were having this conversation,

Rhonda Coleman (04:19.618)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (04:31.382)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (04:38.646)
last weekend about how fortunate we were to grow up never doubting our parents and our family's love for us. And that was true in our nuclear family, the four of us, my parents, my brother and me, but it was also true in this broader sense of the Cargetsby crew in like my high school and elementary school and the whole way through. But I think about the way our teachers

Rhonda Coleman (04:52.649)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (04:58.004)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (05:07.884)
made a point of knowing us and teaching the subject matter, but also the human elements. And teachers who were teaching social studies, but also social graces, they were making sure that we were cared for in a way, that we were growing up to be full, to our full potential.

Rhonda Coleman (05:10.088)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (05:15.016)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (05:22.461)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (05:32.805)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Whitney Harper (05:34.35)
They're still that way. They're still on Facebook, like commenting on what's happening.

Rhonda Coleman (05:38.099)
Yes, yes. No, I love that. I love that because I can mirror your experience with my own. I grew up, I was adopted as an infant and I'm always grateful for the family I was adopted into. Both of each of my parents came from a big family. I think my mother was one of 10, my father was one of seven.

Whitney Harper (05:51.438)
Yeah.

Rhonda Coleman (06:00.146)
just tons of love everywhere all the time. My mom and dad's side would have picnics and stuff together. You know what I mean? Everybody knew everybody, everybody loved and supported everyone. And then in even another layer, my parents' church community was very close-knit and very supportive and loving and nurturing and still on Facebook. Like they love my husband.

Whitney Harper (06:11.049)
And I love you all.

Whitney Harper (06:25.87)
you

Rhonda Coleman (06:29.906)
And I don't even go to the church. So that for me coming out of that, I had so much confidence. I thought I could accomplish anything in this world. And I took that into the world with me. So I know we talked before and you had a similar experience, but can you talk more about that?

Whitney Harper (06:49.698)
Yeah.

Yeah, I I definitely was gifted with an outsized dose of confidence. And I have to believe it's in part because of that community and that never doubting your place in it and the love that was around you and the support that was around you and feeling safe to take big leaps and know that

you were gonna fall down sometimes and you had good people around you who were gonna help pick you up and who weren't gonna like rub your face in it. I think that was at a foundational level, a big part of it. I I kind of jokingly say, but it's almost true. I sort of grew up with this sense that if I decided I wanted the earth to spin the opposite direction, like I could make it happen. Like we're still going the direction we're going because I haven't decided I need to change it.

Rhonda Coleman (07:29.583)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (07:45.518)
Absolutely, why not?

Rhonda Coleman (07:51.2)
Yes, yes.

Whitney Harper (07:53.166)
I mean, what a gift. I am so grateful for that because life is hard, right? There can be some tough stuff. And I have been able to go through life not letting self-doubt add to making that harder, you know?

Rhonda Coleman (08:04.857)
Absolutely.

Rhonda Coleman (08:11.542)
Yes, absolutely. No, I love that. I love that. Super important. know people often like I sometimes ask myself, like, how did you move from Memphis with two little kids to Chicago, Illinois, with most of your family, like all of those aunts and uncles pretty much in Memphis and think you could do law school and not even it didn't even cross my mind that it wouldn't work out.

Whitney Harper (08:40.078)
Isn't that wild? Yeah.

Rhonda Coleman (08:40.717)
work out, you know? It's gonna be good. I'm gonna get the job. I'm gonna, everything's gonna work out. So I'm grateful for that confidence and love that propelled me but and sustained me when sometimes it wasn't as easy as I thought it was gonna be, right? But I had the strength to push through and keep going, yeah.

Whitney Harper (08:52.162)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (08:59.352)
for sure.

for sure. Well, and I think, you know, there's, there's also like, it's such a gift to have to receive that. And I think as an adult, I'm recognizing that not everybody had that. And so it is like, I now feel like it's such a gift to be able to share that with people. And like, you can borrow some of my confidence if you're not feeling it today, you know, I, and I, and I'm here for you and just like, being able to model that for other people or to let them

Rhonda Coleman (09:14.754)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (09:23.786)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (09:31.67)
let it borrow from it or lean on it.

Rhonda Coleman (09:33.707)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (09:35.67)
has been, like that's been a real pleasure in life to do that. People who, yeah, it didn't occur to me as a kid that not everybody grew up.

Rhonda Coleman (09:39.444)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (09:44.92)
Right. No, I love that. I love that. So, I mean, you're speaking to so much right now. That's why there's an important Sephora sponsorship in your career, mentorship in your career and life, not just career, but in life too. And I see that comes through in Advoce Pro. You know, we're going to talk about your business later, but that's like all in it.

Yes, helping people when they can't help themselves sometimes. Yeah, awesome. All right, so you've got another cool story with your family before we move past family. Your grandparents, can you just quickly tell the story of how they ended up from the big city in small town USA?

Whitney Harper (10:35.234)
Yeah, yeah, so my grandparents were, they were just cool people. They were from Ohio and my grandfather, my dad's dad was a cop and then went into the FBI. And my grandmother, my dad's mom went,

I don't think she actually graduated from high school. I think she went early from high school into college. And I don't know how she did that, but she was just that kind of person who was like, I'm going and here I am. And then went through to med school and we're talking about people who were born in the early twenties. So there weren't really women in med school at that point. And then did her surgical residency and became an OB-GYN. And

Rhonda Coleman (11:10.357)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (11:21.247)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (11:28.394)
There were even fewer women in surgery at that point. And so they're in, like they're not in Florida at this point. And I think they were eventually in Nashville, Tennessee.

Rhonda Coleman (11:32.117)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (11:44.268)
The sheriff of Jacksonville was running moonshine and was ousted by the governor. And the governor realizes he can't just like promote someone else from the department into the position of sheriff because they're probably all running moonshine too. And so he asks J. Edgar Hoover to send him someone. And so Hoover, I don't know what the criteria were, but Hoover sends my grandfather. So my grandfather comes down to fulfill this ousted sheriff's term.

And Granny comes with him and she begins her Jacksonville phase of her career. And she was an OBGYN at Baptist Hospital in Jacksonville, which is our big hospital system at the time. And she was their first female chief of staff. And he ended up being sheriff in Jacksonville through some really interesting times.

the consolidation of the city and county and desegregation and just like all sorts of interesting stuff going on.

Rhonda Coleman (12:47.748)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (12:49.754)
And they were kind of a Jacksonville power couple, which I think is part of why my parents reacted to like, want to go live in a little sleepy lake down. But in particular, my granny was my person. she was really a huge, you you talk about sponsors and role models, like she was a huge role model for me and a huge sponsor of my life.

Rhonda Coleman (13:14.865)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (13:18.114)
And I remember asking her one time, like, you what was it like to be the only woman in your surgical residency and one of, think, three women in your med school class? And she just stared me dead in the eye and was like, it was like going to med school. It was like, she just was not about, we're gonna let the excuse or the awkward or the way I feel is back, you know?

Rhonda Coleman (13:29.649)
Mm-hmm.

Hahaha!

Yeah, I love that. Love that so much. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so you grew up in a small town. There's one school and we don't have to go too deep into that. But how did you get from school? Because I know you said it was a very nurturing environment.

taught social graces as well as academics. You tell us about the pod, I guess, that you went through school with and how you ended up choosing the college that you chose.

Whitney Harper (14:17.356)
Yeah, so I was in like the gifted program all through school, right? So you end up in this little pod. I mean, it's a small school, but we were an even smaller kind of subset of kids who are like always put together in the gifted group. so that was a group of kids where the conversation was never, are you going to go to college? It was, where are you going to go to college? And even what grad school are you going to do after that? And so I,

Rhonda Coleman (14:31.995)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (14:39.643)
Mm-hmm.

huh.

Whitney Harper (14:46.062)
I was dead set on going to Duke. I had applied to all these schools and anything that you might call a Southern Ivy, right? I did all of those, got in everywhere I wanted to go and we're in Florida and Florida has this great state sponsored scholarship program. Bright futures will pay your way based on test scores and GPA and whatever. So my parents were like, apply everywhere you wanna go, we'll make it happen.

Rhonda Coleman (14:53.126)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (15:03.002)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (15:15.438)
but you must apply to one state school. So I sort of begrudgingly applied to UF and really was like, whatever, I'm not going to UF, fine. I get my acceptances to UF and Duke at the same time and like on the same day. And I go sit down with my friends at the barbecue restaurant, the only game in town, right? Johnny's Barbecue. I sitting here and looking at these two packages and I'm like, okay, Duke.

Rhonda Coleman (15:18.916)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (15:35.557)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (15:44.494)
Like I've got this grant and there's a scholarship and this is all amazing. And it's still going to be like $25,000 a year. And I opened the Florida package and there's like the Bright Future Scholarship and a whole bunch of other things on top of it. And it turns out like I'm going to make money going to Florida on top of, you after I've paid for room and board and all the things like there's still, there's still excess. And I remember sitting there, my parents were like, you know,

Rhonda Coleman (16:03.586)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (16:10.339)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (16:13.622)
where do want to go? We'll make it happen. And they were absolutely willing. And I was like, I can do math. This math is pretty compelling. So, you know, I'm a Gator. And went all in and loved the experience at UF and kind of thought, I, you know, my grad school will be the school that matters anyway. And then met my husband when I was, I guess,

Rhonda Coleman (16:19.577)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (16:38.168)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (16:43.202)
the summer after my freshman year of college. And he's from Northeast Florida. He's from Neptune Beach, Jacksonville area. And when we knew we were getting married, it was sort of like, Florida's great if you want to practice in Jacksonville, Florida's the network you want. So I didn't really need to go anywhere else. So I went through undergrad and law school. But going back to that pod from kind of elementary and high school life, it was interesting.

Rhonda Coleman (16:50.99)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (17:01.741)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (17:10.167)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (17:13.966)
At my high school graduation, it hadn't really occurred to me. You know, I said, everybody asked me, where are you going? Are you going to college? it hadn't really occurred to me that there was like some other thing you might do. So we're walking across the stage, you know, graduation ceremony and they're like, you know, person X is going to go work at the electric co-op. Like they they've accepted a position as X, Y, Z. And I remember just being sort of stunned like,

Rhonda Coleman (17:20.461)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Rhonda Coleman (17:27.222)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (17:42.818)
Like that's a life option too. Just like things that occurred to me because the path was so like, this is what you're gonna do.

Rhonda Coleman (17:44.566)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rhonda Coleman (17:52.512)
Right, yeah, no, I can relate to that. So one, I grew up going through what we call the optional program in the Memphis City School System or the honors program. So you base from first grade all the way through almost, you're with the same kids. And it's a bigger school district, but still the same kids. And I taught in that school district when I became a teacher post-graduation, yep.

Whitney Harper (18:19.832)
Ooh, full circle.

Rhonda Coleman (18:22.197)
Yeah, for sure. And I ended up teaching gift tickets. So I can relate to all of that. Yeah. Yeah, but I can also relate to you don't, especially when you're little, like you're young, you don't have an experience outside of your bubble. And so at graduation, it's like, well, there are a lot of people in this class and everybody's not going to college. So it's almost like your first

Whitney Harper (18:41.005)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (18:44.62)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rhonda Coleman (18:51.339)
foray or step into the real world almost. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney Harper (18:54.776)
For sure, for sure. Yeah. Well, and interesting, mean, there are parallels all over, right? But I think as lawyers, so many of us have a, you come out of law school and you think, here's what practicing law has to look like. It's just because that's the bubble of law you've been exposed to, not because that's the only option out there, right?

Rhonda Coleman (19:10.698)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (19:15.4)
Mm-hmm. Right, right. Yep, keep an open mind. I know I gave a talk last year, I think, and it was contract negotiations about the human side of it. And one thing I said that's super important to do, whether you're negotiating contracts or living your life, is to keep an open mind and approach situations with an unbiased attitude. Yeah, cool. Okay, so.

Let's get into your career. So you clerked for two summers at the same law firm, Employment Law and Commercial Litigation, right? Was the kind of law that you were first exposed to. Can you talk about that?

Whitney Harper (20:00.866)
Yeah, I mean, it was really interesting. I had a super supportive group, practice group in that law firm and they gave me great exposure to really doing the work of lawyering. I know some people, their early lawyering was like, yeah, I did document review for like 12 months in a warehouse. I was drafting motions and taking depositions and doing all the things.

Rhonda Coleman (20:23.016)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (20:30.503)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (20:31.31)
on the employment law side, a ton of client contact and, you know, counseling clients through sticky situations with their employees or, you know, whatever was going on. So I really had a lot of hands-on exposure, which again, sort of reinforced the like, yeah, I can do this. I'm great. Everybody tells me so, I mean, even like I recall my mentor in the firm, at some point I

Rhonda Coleman (20:48.296)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (20:51.742)
I'm

Whitney Harper (21:01.794)
drafted emotion and just got it wrong, right? Hold on, got it wrong, but it was for another, a lawyer outside our practice group. And this person like kind of tried to get after me about it. And my mentor like stepped in the middle and was like, she didn't get it wrong. Like she's great, like totally defended me. And was just basically I told her to like back off and you know, and it.

Rhonda Coleman (21:06.098)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (21:11.601)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (21:18.503)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (21:27.261)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (21:30.855)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (21:31.506)
your job as a supervising attorney if you missed it, like, you know, she's the associate, whatever, and turned around, you know, I think after the guy leaves, she turns around to me and she's like, so did you get it wrong? Like, she didn't know. She didn't care. She was like coming to my defense and, you know, I was like, yeah, he's absolutely right. I missed it. But that, you know, that kind of support was great. And so was there

Rhonda Coleman (21:48.753)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (21:52.903)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (22:01.184)
a couple of years, not a terribly long time, but really enjoyed that exposure to what it is in a law firm and the collegiality and all that. But it was a pretty typical law firm. were building Mighty Hour and doing a lot of fun stuff.

Rhonda Coleman (22:11.196)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (22:18.171)
Right.

Rhonda Coleman (22:21.724)
Yeah, I like that you had a positive experience when it came to people and support from your colleagues when you started out in the law firm, because that's not everybody's story. You know what I mean? Some people's story is like the guy who came after you in an inappropriate tone. That's their experience all the time during their first law school experience. But I mean, law, job.

Whitney Harper (22:48.952)
Well, and it wasn't all butterflies and roses, right? But like, there was a lot of in that. There was a lot of good.

Rhonda Coleman (22:52.165)
Sure, Yeah, and you were able to see the importance of having somebody like that in your life so that you could pay it forward and provide that to someone else as you move through. Yeah, because I think that's important.

Whitney Harper (23:06.85)
Yeah, for sure.

Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (23:11.445)
All righty-dighty. So where was your first job? Like you clerked there for two summers. you work there too? Right. Same firm.

Whitney Harper (23:22.338)
paper. Yeah.

Rhonda Coleman (23:26.683)
All right. And then why did you leave the firm? And where'd you go?

Whitney Harper (23:31.566)
So I was on maternity leave and I got a call from the husband of one of the lawyers I worked with. He was also a lawyer. He was general counsel of a private equity backed company in town. And he had an opening he needed to fill. So he had this sort of compliance program and the person who had led it was retiring. And he wanted to put a lawyer in that spot. They had not had a lawyer in that spot before.

Rhonda Coleman (23:39.245)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (23:45.283)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (24:00.28)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (24:01.048)
So as he tells it, his wife bragged about me too much at home, and so he stole me from her. So Tim hires me in. And it was interesting. So I was a gunner in my attitude about how I was going to deal with my law career. So I was two and a half years into this firm, and I'm see myself on the partner track, and I'm

Rhonda Coleman (24:21.048)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (24:29.376)
headed that direction. Like I am, I am going to be a partner. And, and I honestly saw the in-house role as the mom track. Like I was sort of, you know, I had that like mental block about like, don't, I don't want to be that stereotype. I'm on maternity leave and you're going to do something else. And yeah, the guy who hired me in had this conversation with me and was like, this

Rhonda Coleman (24:47.123)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (24:57.58)
this kind of thing is like a private equity backed business is a different animal in a really cool way. Like I think you're gonna really like the environment. It is actually really fast paced and there's a lot of opportunity and like this is not the slow roll. It's not that. And he was really clear. Like I understand that you have equity as part of what you want.

Rhonda Coleman (25:10.808)
huh.

Rhonda Coleman (25:16.616)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (25:27.211)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (25:27.232)
in your path and like we're a PE backed company and our key personnel get equity. I was very clear that was important to me. And so he went to bat and made sure that I had equity as part of the management team. And so then I felt like, okay, this can make sense. Like I can still be thinking about something that might have some exit potential here.

Rhonda Coleman (25:32.427)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (25:45.471)
Mm-hmm

Rhonda Coleman (25:56.041)
Okay, all right. Right, yeah, so I'd like to highlight, so in that situation, you had identified what you wanted in your career, you know, and you identify like how you thought you were supposed to accomplish that. And, but someone presented an alternative to you and at first you're like, this is not, this is not what I want, like I don't want that mom track.

Whitney Harper (25:57.39)
So take that opportunity.

Rhonda Coleman (26:25.75)
You know, I want something else, or what you thought was the mom track. And he explained it to you, but you were open and you listened. And you're like, oh, well, OK, this actually is probably what I want. It's fast paced. I get equity. So why not take it? Why not take it? And yeah, so that's awesome. All right.

Whitney Harper (26:25.806)
you

Whitney Harper (26:44.524)
Yeah.

Rhonda Coleman (26:52.914)
So you are, you're brought in to, and you're to lead the compliance, regulatory compliance piece of things as the assistant general counsel.

What happened next? How long were you in that role? And then what happened?

Whitney Harper (27:09.836)
Yeah, so I don't recall exactly how long it was before this happened, but it wasn't very long. And leading this compliance team and Tim calls me in one day and he's like, hey, I'm going back to my old law firm. I just, need more deal flow and we haven't had a sound over here. And he was an and a guy and, really wanted high volume. And so he's like, I'm, you know, I'm going back to my law firm.

Rhonda Coleman (27:15.742)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (27:35.22)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (27:40.62)
So you're going to fill this role while they figure out what they're going to do about general counsel. And by the way, we're selling half the company. We're kind in the middle of the process. And I wasn't allowed to tell you until now, but you're up. And I was like, cool. Tim, you know I've never done MNA before. This sounds like malpractice, but great.

Rhonda Coleman (27:45.971)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (27:56.628)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (28:02.682)
Exactly!

You

Whitney Harper (28:09.838)
And he actually had a great answer for it, which I'm sure he was, you know, kind of angling for all along, but he was my outside counsel. So I got the benefit of being in the chair, like getting turns at the wheel, really feeling and experiencing what it is to do a big deal. I think was a $248 million deal. Like this was not, this was not a little, you know, tiny, easy deal. Our buyer was a

Rhonda Coleman (28:29.8)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (28:39.704)
public company. And so we had some, some components there that were just different and, and interesting. And I got to see firsthand just about everything you want to see in &A with this Sherpa who was being paid to, you know, make sure it went well. And, along the way. And so that was my first exposure to what, what is now, I would say most of, most of my practice.

Rhonda Coleman (28:51.987)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (28:57.875)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (29:06.961)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (29:08.364)
It was really, it was an interesting experience. then, we, after that sale, we turned around and kind of took that stockpile of cash and started buying up smaller companies that were, that we could integrate into the other business units we had retained. And so we were doing those roll-ups and I was leading those transactions and we didn't have somebody then whose job it really was to

Rhonda Coleman (29:21.701)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (29:27.686)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (29:37.386)
make sure that the company we just acquired integrated well with what we had. We had a business unit leader who needed to run that business unit, but there's a lot of like plugging the wires together and the plan for how do we deal with the people who are coming into the business and how do we, like all the moving parts work. So I got to do that role, kind of take that on as part of my role as general counsel and discovered I was really enjoying

Rhonda Coleman (29:41.5)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (29:53.422)
huh.

Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (30:02.95)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (30:06.638)
kind of the operational side of business. I was part of the management team, so I was learning a lot about how to think about the strategy of running a business, but also the tactics of what do you do to execute on that strategy. And then the operational side of the execution as well. And I was managing people and enjoying that. And it was all like, huh, this is, you start to see how,

Rhonda Coleman (30:09.766)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (30:19.75)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (30:24.516)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (30:28.974)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (30:35.244)
law can be a superpower beyond just the strictly legal work. The logical thinking, the critical thinking, the influence and negotiation approaches and like all the things and how to handle, I mean, think, know, lawyers do work that is about, by and large, about crises. And so when you can deal,

Rhonda Coleman (30:40.752)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (30:51.226)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (31:01.456)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (31:04.152)
Capably and rationally and calmly with the heavy stuff, right? The day day becomes pretty easy. Maybe not easy, but being a person who can handle those things, like that's all the lawyering superpower plays as well in those other spots. So that was fun to go use.

Rhonda Coleman (31:08.836)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (31:13.476)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (31:19.866)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah. So I have a question as I'm listening to you. I'm feeling like you're very gifted and skilled at kind of operating in the flow, like flow and ease and kind of identifying where that is for you, you know. I'm hearing you enjoyed your positions. You, the only time I've heard some, a little conflict is taking that first job and it not really being your idea of success. But then when you

it was explained to you, you're like, this actually may actually fit in. And then from then on, things seem to flow, I won't say easily, but naturally, right? Do you have any, how do you do that? Because it seems it's a gift to be able to identify, I like this, this feels good. I'm going to keep doing this or I don't like this. This doesn't feel good. I want to do this.

Whitney Harper (32:20.238)
Yeah. You know, I will say, I think I also am a person who is quick to forget the stuff that was crappy. Or at least, like, I don't hang on to it at the surface level, right? So it's there, but it's not top of mind for me. So there certainly were difficult patches. There were reasons to make shifts. And there were, you know, there are world stories along the way, But I think there's also, like,

Rhonda Coleman (32:30.37)
Okay.

Rhonda Coleman (32:36.673)
Okay.

Rhonda Coleman (32:44.189)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure.

Whitney Harper (32:50.166)
it's super important to.

to choose to see the good, to choose to see the opportunities, to choose agency, to understand that actually when something doesn't feel good, actually can change it. And when you're not getting the result you want, it's on you, right? I think the...

Rhonda Coleman (33:01.227)
Mm-hmm. I'm loving all this,

Rhonda Coleman (33:11.703)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (33:17.43)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (33:20.096)
In my experience, the people who have a harder time in life are the people who feel like it is being done to them. I heard somebody say the other day, it's not being done to me, it's being done for me. And I don't know if that fully resonates with me, but I do believe that I can choose differently. And it is my responsibility to that. I don't get to blame somebody else if the situation isn't working out the way I want.

Rhonda Coleman (33:25.388)
Yes.

Rhonda Coleman (33:34.615)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (33:42.529)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (33:50.174)
and or the way that feels good or is, you know, healthy for me or my family or the outcomes that I want. so I think that's a big part of it is like when you when you recognize your own agency in it. And if you believe that that you are good, then you do sort of see situations turning for good.

Rhonda Coleman (33:55.191)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (33:59.724)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (34:04.447)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (34:12.362)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (34:19.692)
And I'm also a believer that the universe is geared in our favor. And so, that does not mean they're not hard times, that the universe is geared for good.

Rhonda Coleman (34:19.946)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (34:25.771)
Mm-hmm.

Right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree with you. I love all of that. I'm excited about all of that that you just said.

Whitney Harper (34:38.958)
My favorite turn of phrase for that is like, believe the universe conspires in my favor every damn day.

Rhonda Coleman (34:46.621)
Yes, absolutely. Wonderful. I love that. I love that. Okay, so mergers and acquisitions. So &A work. You're getting lots of experience with that. That sounds like so much fun. And what happens now? The company's been sold and...

Whitney Harper (35:07.022)
So yeah, we did this whole roll up strategy and then we sell the company and it's like we're merging two companies that are kind of equally sized. And I had this opportunity to jump out of the general counsel's and into an operator role. And there was a guy who I had a ton of respect for in the business who had this really interesting position open.

I say interesting, other people probably think it's nuts, but it was like such pricing strategy, help run the sales team nationally, manage the high touch customer issue resolution team, right? So all the complaints from your most important customers coming to one little group. And then like also managing, this was a business unit where we had acquired several companies and

Rhonda Coleman (35:52.137)
Hmm?

Whitney Harper (36:05.582)
They all had homegrown tech platforms and we had bolted them together like Frankenstein. Like we liked this component and that component. And, so then we got to go through the process of a software build and build what would be the, the combined platform. And so I got to do that as well. And it was just, it was all really interesting to me. And I loved that role. Did that for about 18 months.

Rhonda Coleman (36:23.932)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (36:31.187)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (36:35.246)
And in that role got to experience being the client of the I'm a sales team. They need to do contracts. I've got like stuff happening with the IT build that we need legal input on. And I'm not the lawyer in the business anymore. Like that's not my job. And so I now am like in the queue. I've got a legal team who needs to handle my stuff. And what does that feel like? What do I actually care about as a business person, as the client?

Rhonda Coleman (36:40.691)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (36:49.009)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (37:02.876)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (37:05.582)
So that was an incredible gift to experience what it is to be on the other side of the table.

Rhonda Coleman (37:13.841)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (37:15.604)
And then I guess about 18 months in, the CEO called me and said, hey, I'd like you to be my chief compliance officer. I was like, that sounds less fun. Because I had had, like I came in doing compliance, remember? And so it should have sounded like, yes, this is a natural fit and chief something like.

Rhonda Coleman (37:32.519)
You

Rhonda Coleman (37:37.538)
Yes, exactly.

Whitney Harper (37:44.578)
What a title, you know, like that's great. But what I had experienced as I kind of looked around and was like, what am I actually enjoying was I was sort of tapped out on the job being put bubble wrap around everything and sweep up when other people break things. And I was really enjoying being out there breaking some shit and making progress and yeah, like building business and that kind of

Rhonda Coleman (38:06.183)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (38:13.698)
going back to that kind of compliance role just was like, ooh, no, I don't think so. ultimately left that company and had a...

very fortunate exit path. So I had some severance and I was able to spend some time home. I, you know, a lot of women are like, I loved maternity leave and it was great. And I did not, I did not love maternity leave. My children were screamers for the first year or two of their lives. They were just beat red, screaming at me the whole time. And to this day, like,

Rhonda Coleman (38:38.575)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (38:49.093)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (38:59.192)
somebody hands me a happy baby and I'm like, what do do with it? Like, but if I'm in room with a screaming baby, give me that screaming baby, right?

Rhonda Coleman (39:01.957)
Rhonda Coleman (39:07.684)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (39:09.518)
But I was not the mom who wanted to be home with my infants. I was like at six weeks of maternity leave. was like, let me back in the office. I gotta go. But when I was home with my kids after that role as kind of on the business side, I'm home with my kids for an academic year and they were kindergarten and second grade. And it was an absolute blast. It was so much fun. I really enjoyed it.

Rhonda Coleman (39:15.087)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (39:18.948)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (39:39.372)
working with a colleague on a potential startup. So I had kind of the mental stimulation of that, right? And I was like in the business game a little, but I was home with kids and I'm like very much enjoying that experience of moming these little humans who are kind of coming into their personalities and all of that really well. And it's like, we're getting close to the end of the school year.

Rhonda Coleman (39:46.712)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (39:55.778)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Whitney Harper (40:07.372)
And my husband was working from home at the time. And the culture for the company that he was working for had really shifted for the worse. And I remember so clearly, at the end of his work day one day, I'm like bebopping around, a good day, coming in from outside, big smile on my face. And I walked past the door to his home office, comes out and looks at me and he's like, you have got a good job because I've got to quit mine.

Rhonda Coleman (40:09.539)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (40:30.528)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (40:36.782)
I was like, all right, whoop, what's up? So then I was like, I guess I can stop playing around with this little startup concept and I'll figure out something legit. Yeah, it was great.

Rhonda Coleman (40:37.507)
Ha ha ha!

Rhonda Coleman (40:47.969)
Funny, Okay, so two things I'd like to highlight and what we were just talking about. One is I feel you on being ready to go back to work after six weeks. had cesarean, so it was eight weeks for me. The first baby, you know, I like, my baby. But then the second one came 24 months later and I was like, my God, let me go back to work, please. Because this is a lot.

Whitney Harper (41:11.736)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (41:15.367)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love that, giving women permission to feel that way. And then the next thing, what are we talking about? Because I will be editing this out. Yes, yes. So I think it's great that you were open to understanding that it was, you know, he was stressed, overwhelmed, a horrible

Whitney Harper (41:19.489)
Yeah.

Whitney Harper (41:26.838)
No, my husband.

Rhonda Coleman (41:42.209)
toxic environment and you had to go to work to give him time to heal. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Whitney Harper (41:49.332)
Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. I loved my time home with the kids and it was hard, right? Like, I remember being like, how is it dinner time? I like, I haven't gotten dinner ready yet. And yeah, there's a lot going on and you're shuttling kids back and forth and doing all the things. It was great fun. I really enjoyed it, but it was a lot, right? And I recognized that

Rhonda Coleman (42:11.413)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (42:15.222)
Yeah.

Whitney Harper (42:19.246)
There is a lot of load in that emotionally, mentally, like physically, there's a lot of work to it and you need to have that too. And I also knew that I was a human who liked working. Like I'm energized by my work and driven and I want to work. When I was home, I was sort of in this mode of like thinking about business building. He said he was ready to be home. Like, okay, that's great. And it actually,

Rhonda Coleman (42:26.003)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (42:33.267)
Yes.

Rhonda Coleman (42:38.409)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (42:43.081)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (42:49.056)
I think it was perfectly designed or happens is whatever. was brilliant that I was home first and had the experience of how much work that is because when he quit his job, I, you fast forward a few months from that conversation, I meet up with my business partner, Gwen, and we within the span of a few days figured out.

Rhonda Coleman (43:01.596)
Okay.

Whitney Harper (43:15.598)
that we were gonna work together, here's how we're gonna partner together, like we've got all the doubt. Two weeks after that, like this is a new, I am business partners with someone in a law firm that is brand new. And two weeks after that, my husband's like, are you ready? Like, can I quit now? Right? Yeah, no, this is great. You can do it. And he has been our stay at home person. So for a decade now. And I recognized

Rhonda Coleman (43:17.855)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (43:21.343)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (43:26.803)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (43:31.194)
Hahaha

Rhonda Coleman (43:38.609)
Okay.

Whitney Harper (43:45.038)
because of my experience in that role, how difficult it is and how much you're giving of yourself to make the people around you well. And we've always said, his job is to keep us all happy, healthy and whole. Keep me fed, I'm angry when I'm hungry. But if that's the job, you have to like,

Rhonda Coleman (43:47.113)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right, right.

Rhonda Coleman (43:59.163)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (44:05.605)
Yes, me too Whitney.

Whitney Harper (44:14.348)
you can't pour from an empty cup, right? So you had to like get clear about like, so he plays a lot of golf, a lot. And he also does a ton of yard work. I'm looking outside right now. He's like outside playing in the pool. He's working really hard for us. And he also like needs recreation time so that he can be in a good place. And so people will say like,

Rhonda Coleman (44:16.637)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (44:22.065)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (44:29.98)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (44:34.129)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (44:39.846)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (44:42.69)
Does it upset you? Like you work so hard. Does it upset you that your husband is playing golf right now? No, no, it would actually upset me if he was not playing enough golf.

Rhonda Coleman (44:47.003)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (44:52.093)
my god, I love all of this. This is amazing. It's amazing. No, I mean you are like a living testament to living outside of the box, you know, not living based on society's expectations of what your life should look like. I absolutely love that. Yeah. Yes.

Whitney Harper (45:11.96)
Thank you. Yeah. I think, mean, you're doing the same. both choosing paths, right? Rather than bribed to.

Rhonda Coleman (45:19.891)
Mm-hmm. Right, exactly, exactly. Okay, so your business, which is incredible. I I loved hearing the story of how you came up with the alternative model for legal billing. So can you tell us about Advos Pro? Can you tell us about how you bill, how you came up with that? Because my Accenture brain loved hearing that story.

Whitney Harper (45:42.166)
Yeah, yeah.

Whitney Harper (45:47.086)
Absolutely. So I met my business partner, Gwen Griggs, in late May 2015. And I recall that when we sat down for lunch, I pretty much right off the bat said, I don't know what I want to do next, but I know I'm not going to be in a law firm. And she had just started her law firm. So Advos, she started at the beginning of 2015, right, And

She was totally undeterred. Right. She hears I'm not going to be a law firm, but she understands that what I really mean is I'm not going to practice law in the traditional sense, under the traditional model. And she had had basically the same career that I've had just, she's 10 years ahead of me. And so she had those same experiences of, billing by the hour, then being in-house counsel, being part of the team, being like part of the business and needing to be solution-minded.

Rhonda Coleman (46:24.846)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (46:31.566)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (46:44.74)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (46:47.39)
And then also being a business owner and being the client of the lawyer. And so we get to talking about how we think this traditional model is really, really broken. It's bad for the lawyer. There's a reason we have such high mental illness and suicide rates and all the things. And the practice of law is out trying to kill us. And bad for clients. And it's bad for the relationship between lawyers and clients.

Rhonda Coleman (46:54.554)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (47:05.73)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (47:11.704)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (47:17.046)
It's the reason we're the butt of the cocktail party jokes and all the things, right? And so we realized pretty quickly that we are the same kind of crazy and that we want to practice law differently. And she went home from lunch that day and told her husband, like, I met my new business partner. Great. So we partner up and we realize that if we're not going to bill by the hour, we have to have some, like, we are metric minded people. We love a gold star.

Rhonda Coleman (47:21.278)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (47:26.456)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (47:45.922)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (47:47.246)
And you've got to have some metric that tells you whether or not you earned your gold star for the day. client needs a metric so that they know they have some way to rest in, am I or am I not getting what I'm paying for?

Rhonda Coleman (47:53.312)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (48:00.376)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (48:01.858)
And so we start looking around for what is that? Like there has to be, somebody has to have figured this out by now. And we can't find it in the legal industry anyway. But a good friend of the firm, Michael White was talking with us one day and he was like, you know, have you thought about the agile scrum methodology that the software developers use? Like, nah, huh, interesting, tell us more. So he starts kind of elaborating on this and.

Rhonda Coleman (48:08.033)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (48:13.336)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (48:25.784)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (48:31.916)
Really the concept is that your work product can be quantified, right? So you can break your work down, break a project down into deliverables and those deliverables can be sized into points, kind of like small medium, half point, one point, two point. And you can size them based on size and complexity. And you can also factor in urgency or value or risk, right? All of these things, but you can.

Rhonda Coleman (48:37.676)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (48:44.984)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (48:49.686)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (48:59.382)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (49:01.642)
measure, you can quantify what you're delivering. And if you start selling the deliverables, you don't have to worry about keeping track of how much time it took you to make them. In fact, you can benefit from being able to get better, faster, stronger at making those deliverables happen. Client, you're not unfairly billing the client because if you price them based on value and the client says, yes, this

Rhonda Coleman (49:13.418)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (49:21.835)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (49:30.668)
this deliverable is worth that value to me, then you've had a great conversation on the front end with your client about price, value, all of those things. And you know, you're only going to do work that the client is thrilled to pay you for. The client has already said that and likes the fee. Which it's very different from what I would say is the traditional model of like the broken vending machine where

Rhonda Coleman (49:33.878)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (49:41.706)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (49:46.678)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (49:57.482)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (49:58.19)
I go up and I say, want this thing and I push the button and it delivers it to me and then it tells me how much I owe it. What is that? But somehow we all have defaulted into this model in the traditional sense of, come and ask me for it, I'm gonna do it. We're not gonna talk about how much it's gonna cost. So you don't get to make a decision about whether it's worth that amount to you. But after the fact, I'll tell you and then we've got to fight about whether you wanna pay it and how long you want to pay it and all that, right?

Rhonda Coleman (50:03.542)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (50:26.462)
Mm.

Whitney Harper (50:27.95)
So we kind of leaned into this points concept and over the course of a decade have honed it into something that really works beautifully for us and for our clients. And we have distilled it into what we now call the P3 method. So when you've had to create a way to operate a business and you go through the trouble of like,

documenting it so that a team can use it and clients can understand it, then you might as well file a patent on it. So we have a pending on P3 Method, which is fun. Yeah. And what that has evolved into is that our law firm clients are largely members. They are paying a membership fee consistently month over month. And in that membership, they get a bucket of points.

Rhonda Coleman (51:02.695)
Mm-hmm.

Love that.

Rhonda Coleman (51:18.238)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (51:23.352)
to use over the space of a calendar quarter. And we are helping them make good informed decisions about how to use those points, right? What are the different ways to solve the challenges that they're facing or to address the opportunities in front of them? What we would do in their shoes, like, you know, how we would pace all those things, they can budget for it. And, you know, we're, again, like only getting paid for work that clients are thrilled to

Rhonda Coleman (51:25.81)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (51:32.596)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (51:40.38)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (51:44.926)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (51:53.326)
you're only doing work that clients are thrilled to pay us for. We do that on the membership side, but we also use the points on projects. You know, if somebody comes in with a one-off something, same approach, break it down into deliverables. We don't have to know what every component of the project is going to be, but we can say, you know, we can learn enough about the project on the front end to say, it's probably not going to be fewer than 15 points and maybe up to 30 or 40 points.

Rhonda Coleman (51:55.795)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (52:02.14)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (52:21.084)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (52:21.758)
what the deliverables are likely to be. If they're more negotiated, then they're going to be more points. If there are new issues that come up, more points. going back to the theme of agency, the client can then understand their role and their impact in how their decisions manage the price and what they want to do there. So that model has been really great. Clients love it. Our net promoter score is in

Rhonda Coleman (52:27.439)
Okay.

Rhonda Coleman (52:31.43)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (52:42.354)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (52:51.278)
just incredibly good. Um, order is a range of negative 100 to 100. And it's question, how likely are you on a scale of zero to one, zero to 10, how likely are you to recommend Rhonda Coleman to a friend or colleague? Right. Well, the legal industry average I think is in the mid thirties, maybe like 37. Ours is in the nineties. I think last week it was 97 when I looked.

Rhonda Coleman (52:53.18)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (52:56.955)
Okay.

Rhonda Coleman (53:05.38)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (53:14.898)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (53:21.262)
So, So we have, you know, proof that the clients love it. They also are the biggest referral source and, you know, recurring revenue is tremendous testament to the fact that they love it. We love working that way. It's more profitable and we're a big fan of that. And it frees us up to have time freedom, to enjoy the work, to have like fun relationships with our clients.

Rhonda Coleman (53:21.265)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (53:27.73)
Yeah.

Rhonda Coleman (53:34.758)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (53:39.363)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Rhonda Coleman (53:49.828)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (53:50.676)
them about what's going on in their business and their life. They're not worried about a clock ticking, right? All of that is so good. And so what then comes from that is that other law firms have picked their heads up and said, that's interesting. I'd like some of that. I'd like a little more profit and time and joy in my practice. so

Rhonda Coleman (53:55.769)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (54:00.547)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (54:06.745)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (54:11.523)
Yes.

Whitney Harper (54:14.228)
As other law firms started asking us to share with them kind of what that method was and how we built the practice we built, we realized there was some demand there. And so Advos Pro is our consulting or coaching practice where we are helping other law firm owners build practices they love that love them back and profit, time and joy. And so we do that through the P3 method, which is our course.

Rhonda Coleman (54:20.835)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (54:28.926)
Okay.

Rhonda Coleman (54:33.923)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (54:42.094)
that helps lawyers understand how to break up with hourly billing and move on to the points method, the deliverables. So that's offered as a standalone. can just buy access to the course and do it on your own pace, or we coach through it in a six kind of coaching window. Or for people who have sort of a broader need, right? don't, either they don't want to break up with hourly billing just yet, or there's more about their practice that they want to shift.

Rhonda Coleman (54:47.065)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (54:57.081)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (55:11.727)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (55:12.462)
we have the path to promance. And so we talk about a promance being the practice you love that loves you back. And so the path to promance really is, it's a coached program that helps lawyers of take a look at where am I now? What are the results I'm getting from my firm right now? And do I like them? What do I want from my practice? And then rather than, I think the thing that

Rhonda Coleman (55:19.201)
Okay.

Rhonda Coleman (55:32.877)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (55:40.352)
A lot of lawyers as type A, kind of driven people, look at it and go, either I have to do it all right now. There's a whole bunch of stuff I've got to fix, and I've got to fix it all right now. They set themselves up for failure because you also still have to practice law, and there's not much time in the day for all that. Or they look at it go, there's too much to fix. I'm going to do none of it. They're like, yeah, take that on, and so I'm going to not try it all.

Rhonda Coleman (55:44.333)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (55:51.725)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (56:02.295)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (56:07.18)
And so really what we're doing there is helping them to identify like we do with our legal clients, right? If you've got this goal, let's not try to solve it all at once, but let's pick what is the first thing we need to do. And we've got kind of a method for how we look at what are all the things and how do we narrow it down to the first thing we need to do. And what is the action over the next two weeks that will get us closer to that and some accountability and some coaching and just somebody to kind of.

Rhonda Coleman (56:16.023)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (56:21.026)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (56:27.437)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (56:35.944)
Look at the situation from a different angle, right? Like often you can't see what's going on right in front of you because you're in the driver's seat. Like you got to look at it. So somebody to come along and help see that and, provide accountability and support and encouragement and like spoon feed the resources that you need at the time you need them so that you can have access and, and move your practice toward.

Rhonda Coleman (56:42.903)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (56:49.399)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (57:05.954)
the practice you actually want. I don't know if you experience this, but I feel like there's a lot of people out there saying, you need to grow your law firm 10X. You need to hire a whole bunch of people. You have to want more revenue. You have to want more clients, whatever. You might want those things. And if you do, great, let's talk about how you get them.

Rhonda Coleman (57:07.861)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (57:23.541)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (57:35.074)
But it might be that what you want is actually a slower pace of work or just a different, a different character of client. Or, you know, maybe what's important to you is having more time flexibility, being able to work more asynchronously, you know, whatever the things are that's in that they're what you want out of your ProMance, right? That you're going to love. It's really about you designing that.

Rhonda Coleman (57:44.843)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (57:59.238)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (58:04.3)
And then how do we, how do we from that goal, design the business that will deliver those results. Right. So it's again, the theme of agency keeps coming up, but, but it is, it's about what getting clear about what it is you want from your practice. You think that it is possible and then designing so that you are continually moving toward that goal, with support and encouragement to keep, keep you going.

Rhonda Coleman (58:15.123)
the right. Right.

Rhonda Coleman (58:20.925)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (58:33.622)
The motivation to keep going.

Rhonda Coleman (58:35.985)
Awesome. I love that. So you have Advos Legal, that's your law firm. Advos Pro is teaching others how to adopt this alternative billing model that you've created and is patent pending. I love it. And then you've got an Advos Community too. Can you just quickly tell us about that?

Whitney Harper (58:56.622)
We do. Yeah. So the Advosphere, what's the name of that recovery blasted thing? Advos. The Advosphere is our free community. It's an online platform that is lawyers only. And we really, wanted to do it. So it's not, it's not a Facebook group. It's not like on the social media platforms.

Rhonda Coleman (59:01.821)
Atmosphere, okay.

Hahaha

Whitney Harper (59:26.722)
because we wanted to give lawyers a very safe place that isn't like, you don't have the fear of, my gosh, if I say this, my clients see it or whatever. But I think we need a place as lawyers to talk about what's working, what's not working, ask the questions and to do so among colleagues who also care about advancing their practices toward their goals. As a lawyer, think we're almost,

Rhonda Coleman (59:33.523)
Right.

Rhonda Coleman (59:41.959)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (59:49.051)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (59:56.194)
We're in this place where clients come to you and believe you know all the answers. And so I think we're very likely to put a whole bunch of pressure on ourselves to know it all, or at least like we do, right? Like to never, never ask a question you don't already know the answer to. Golden rule of depositions. When you think about it from that perspective, it makes sense. There are so many lawyers who aren't talking about what's not working in their practice, or if they are, they're doing it in a

Rhonda Coleman (01:00:00.433)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (01:00:06.737)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (01:00:11.985)
Right.

Yeah.

Whitney Harper (01:00:26.414)
in a way that doesn't sound like there's actually a solution, that it's just like, has to be that way, right? Like, oh, it works, but aren't we all? And there's no way around that. Or, yeah, I'm not making enough money, but neither is anybody else, or whatever it is. But we're having a safe place to talk about that and share resources and just be in community, particularly as small and solo firm owners. It can be lonely, right?

Rhonda Coleman (01:00:31.291)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (01:00:35.409)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (01:00:42.791)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (01:00:54.798)
One of the things I loved when I was at the bigger firm was that I had colleagues down the hall. I had people to just like pop in when I needed somebody to commiserate about something or I had a question or whatever, you've got that community built in. But when you are in your own firm or you're in a kind of small to mid-sized firm, that can be harder and isolating. So having that community becomes really important.

Rhonda Coleman (01:01:05.649)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (01:01:09.947)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (01:01:17.649)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (01:01:23.726)
thrilled to have the atmosphere. It is open and available for all lawyers and would love to have anybody listening to this podcast who fits that category hop in and join. It's a great spot.

Rhonda Coleman (01:01:29.358)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (01:01:39.192)
Awesome. We'll definitely have the links in the podcast posting on my website. So you can find Atvosphere and Atvos Pro and Whitney. So this has been a lovely conversation. I've enjoyed it. I always enjoy. I mean, I think I enjoy everything that I talk about with my guests, but I enjoy the career trajectory the most because I'm just interested in, you know, the pivots that we make, why we make

Whitney Harper (01:01:41.567)
Thank

Whitney Harper (01:01:45.922)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Rhonda Coleman (01:02:08.514)
the changes we do. And then I like to also tie it back to our foundation, the confidence that you received growing up, just how it shows up in your life all the time. And also you don't just have it yourself, you want to share it and pass that on to other people. And that's beautiful, I love that. So I hope everybody takes at least that out of this rich conversation today.

What are your pivot pearls of wisdom for us that you'd like to leave us with?

Whitney Harper (01:02:44.75)
Well, first I will say thank you for framing the conversation the way you have, because I think it can be really easy to just be so focused on going forward and living your life that you sort of forget to look back and like, thank all the people in your life and be grateful for the good and the bad experiences that you've had that have brought you to where you are. So that has been...

Rhonda Coleman (01:03:11.522)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (01:03:12.684)
an absolute treasure. I've really enjoyed that in our conversations. But I think that's part of the pivot pearls, right? Is like taking the kind of conversations you're having here, but having that conversation with yourself. Where did I come from? What do I want? And what am I learning along the way? Looking forward, but also like looking back in gratitude, you know, can be really powerful. So I think...

Rhonda Coleman (01:03:25.654)
Good night.

Rhonda Coleman (01:03:29.184)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (01:03:36.802)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (01:03:40.91)
honoring where you came from is a big part of it. And the agency piece, believing that you actually can choose differently. You can choose a different outcome and that you have the power to change the design of what you're doing today so that you start getting the outcomes you want and getting closer to them. That I think has been

Rhonda Coleman (01:03:47.51)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (01:04:00.354)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (01:04:04.748)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (01:04:09.478)
so important in my life and also requires, I think, some belief that it's okay if you don't get it right right away. It's actually totally all right to fail. And if you aren't failing, you're probably not putting yourself out there enough. So that's, you know, I think that's a huge part of being willing to pivot, being able to pivot successfully is giving yourself the grace to, you know,

Rhonda Coleman (01:04:20.94)
Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Coleman (01:04:29.474)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Harper (01:04:39.522)
be a little dizzy in your pivot and fall over here and there.

Rhonda Coleman (01:04:42.696)
Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you, thank you. I love that. Yes, mindset shift of taking an agency perspective for your life and career is extremely powerful. I agree with that. Love that. Thank you and I'll see you soon. Awesome.

Whitney Harper (01:05:03.406)
I have loved this conversation. Thank you so much, truly. Like, this has been really fun. Enjoy it.